"That Kid From Wendy's"

Kerouac Smith, Host of Kerouac to the Future, shares his unique story of multiple parental estrangement and how the famous chain Wendy's Hamburgers helped him through a tough time in an unlikely way.

www.buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

Always name calling it a little angry. It was never violent, but it was always like you were always aware that he could hurt you if you wanted to. Like he made sure you knew that.

SPEAKER_03: 0:52

Kara Buck Smith, it's very, very nice to meet you. I'm very excited to be talking with you today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:57

Well, thank you. You as well.

SPEAKER_03: 0:59

So tell me a little bit about yourself, how you kind of came to hear about when the bow breaks.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07

Uh well, we're both involved in a Facebook group. I think it's called Podcaster Support Group. Um, I I never post there at all. I I'm a member, I lurk uh as I do through much of my life. Um that sounds bad these days. Um but uh but I I lurk and I read everything and I and I saw I saw you posting about your show. And uh it's funny. I um I I read a post that you that you wrote and I was reading through the comments and I was thinking about estrangement and I went and looked uh I was like you know I'm gonna go see what what uh my dad has done on Facebook lately and I and I popped like I I I'm not I don't have you know I'm not Facebook friends with him um but I went over and looked at his page which is public and uh saw his latest post and was like oh what am I doing and I and then I emailed you Oh no yeah I've been there I've been there I'd done that myself so was it more kind of like therapeutic than I yeah I I look at I look at the podcast I do almost almost purely as therapy even though I don't I don't present it that way um but but uh forcing myself out of my comfort zone and into uh a conversation and and trying to create content even if it's just really for me. I mean I don't even I hardly even tell anyone I I put it out. Um I I it's just the actual practice of doing it that uh that I enjoy.

SPEAKER_03: 2:56

Yeah no I had a guest the other day. Um he was just telling me that he had started a podcast with his brother, whom he didn't really have a relationship with growing up. And so they didn't really know each other. And so they kind of started their podcast out of just trying to have a relationship with each other, but you know, at this along the same time, you know, trying to come up with content. So again, like it was kind of therapeutic for them. And the more and more I dug into podcasting personally, the more and more I found that there were so many people talking about some really, really cool things in a really, really interesting way. Can you tell me more about your show?

SPEAKER_00: 3:36

Mine is mine is called Carewack to the Future, and it's uh it's really all over the place. Um couple times I had uh I had some of my local stay-at-home dad friends over, and uh, and we you know we we made a a loose format of what we were going to do. We were we were mainly talking about uh technology, um technology and entertainment. Um but I couldn't really get them to commit to coming over, so I uh but I still wanted to record, and so I started going to uh our local library and so episodes three and four, I I found homeless people at the library and I took them to lunch and had an informal conversation with them at lunch and told them you know what I was thinking of doing, and then uh brought them back. One of them we went back to the library to a study room, the other one we went to a topiary garden that's um the famous painting from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. The name I can never remember, but it's the the springtime scene in the park.

SPEAKER_03: 4:48

Oh my gosh, I should know this. I'm like an art nerd, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. But yeah, I know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00: 4:57

We have a topiary garden here that is that is made to re to look like that painting.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

If you look at if you stand in the right place and look at the park, it's the painting.

SPEAKER_03: 5:09

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00: 5:10

So he and I, the second person, Thomas, he and I sat and we just had a discussion in the park, so you can hear the birds and people walking by and stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 5:19

It was oh, that's awesome. I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 5:22

Those those that a lot of the things I do are almost like um pilots. So that was that was first names only with Kerouac, even though it it is posted under Kerouac to the future. Um which the whole Kerouac to the future thing was just uh for a Doug Benson thing, he he asked people who come to his show to bring a sign like a poster that uses their name as a pun in a movie title.

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

And with my name, I didn't know what the heck to do. It's it's a weird name to try to work into a pun.

SPEAKER_03: 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:59

So so I I did that, and uh and and I since I was starting my podcast around the same time I was going to a show, I figured I would uh just call it that and start. You know, that they I keep hearing people, you know, him and haw that they want to start a podcast and they don't actually get around to to ever recording anything or putting anything up. And one of the first pieces of advice that I got from uh a producer here in town was to put it up and get better, like just put it out there, yeah, keep working.

SPEAKER_03: 6:33

Yeah, I decided to keep in a couple of mistakes in my pilot episode because I wanted to remember those things and I wanted to remember where I was. I don't want to forget where I was, you know. I don't know how long how far this show is going to go. I really don't. I really don't care either. I mean, I do care, but you know what I mean. That's not what drives me. You know, what drives me is just doing this, you know, being here in the moment and talking with people like you. But uh yeah, I don't know what's going to happen. And it's just, but I want to appreciate, you know, my growth and things like that. And that was something that like I is kind of new for me is appreciating my growth because I've never really been allowed to grow a whole lot, you know, when I was younger and stuff. I don't know if you that like strikes a core with you or not, but oh, it does.

SPEAKER_00: 7:18

Uh although in my case, I don't think I particularly tried to grow a whole lot either. I you know, that's like the whole lurking thing, you know, uh stay sort of stay as anonymous as well. Now I sound like our president. Stay as anonymous as my name will let me.

SPEAKER_01: 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:38

And uh, you know, not uh it it a lot of that goes back to you know to the issues I'm sure we'll get to. Like, you know, I dealt with tons of confrontation, you know. I I had a a father who used confrontation as sport and uh and and thrived on it. So I've you know, I've always been uh a peacemaker even even before the confrontation. Like I'm I'm always looking ahead to what I can what I can do to avoid the problems.

SPEAKER_03: 8:14

Yeah, I felt the same way. Like you always feel like, okay, what's gonna happen next? Like you always feel like you're getting ready for something you don't know what.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 8:24

Yeah, you know, tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Like um well, if I mean if we're if we're talking about the the estrangement part, it I think I I think I have to unfortunately go all the way back to the beginning because uh my mom was 18 when she had me. Um this was in 72. Um she had had a child three years before and put her up for adoption. She kept it with a different with a different person. Um so she was married and they kept they kept me. My dad left uh within a couple months after I was born.

SPEAKER_01: 9:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

Um he I I dodged a bullet there because he had insisted on naming me after his guru at the time. And remember, this is 72. People were these were a couple of hippies with with gurus. And uh my mom hated the name, so she she's sitting there eight months pregnant and finishing one of uh Jack Kerouac's books, and like as she closes it, it hits her that Kerouac might be a name that she would like and she could sell him on. Um so she did, and he he went for it. And you know, if I if I had grown up with the name that he had insisted I have, and he disappeared, I think that would have been uh I would have been pretty bitter and I would have had a a different life potentially, almost certainly, yeah, to be honest. Um but uh within another within a year and a half or so um after he was gone, I think even less than that. I I don't think it was maybe I don't think I was even a year old before uh she remarried. And that's the guy who I who I have called dad all my life. Um and and I mean I didn't even know about the other guy until I was probably seven or eight or something, uh maybe a little younger. But uh but this was again the 70s in Ohio, and uh the the the scene here was uh a lot of quaaludes. Um and I was I was pretty much left alone. Like I I did what I wanted. Um I don't remember much supervision at all. We we moved around a lot. The people, the adults I was around, there was usually at least one person staying with us as well. But they were they were always high, well, the opposite of high. They were real low all the time. Uh so I just you know I fended for myself. I I ran ran around the neighborhood, did my own thing, went to school, uh, did did great. You know, I was a smart kid. I read everything in my house, which was was an eye-opener that young.

SPEAKER_01: 11:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 11:29

But uh when when I was nine, they well, when I was eight and a half, they they divorced, and uh his new wife to be picked him up and they took off. And in the meantime, they had had another child, my brother, who was six years younger than me. And he wanted custody of of his son.

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 11:57

So my mom, who was uh now close to uh a shut-in through through the the quaaludes and sort of the fear of him and the fear of confrontation and alcohol and other drugs, she she said, Well, you know, you can take you can have him, but you have to take both of them. And and so he he moved to Florida and uh they both got jobs and got a house and they sent and they sent for us. So uh we we got put on a plane and sent to go sent to go to Florida to go live with uh what was essentially my stepdad and his wife.

SPEAKER_03: 12:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 12:40

Um at first I I was still I was still in the the state the stage where I idolized him. He he was he's a very very smart person. Um and uh at least to me he was still very idealistic. Um you know he he I I would say the lessons he gave me up until 10 or 11 were great life lessons in because I I didn't see the things that went on with him and my mom. I was always out on my own.

SPEAKER_01: 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:15

Um but it was it was always about you know treating everyone equally and you know believing in the best in people and and you know always doing what's right even when it's even when it it hurts you, you know. Um but down down there is is I uh you know started to head into my my teenage years, you know, and and and their and their honeymoon wore off. He he just started to get really really angry with her. Um you know, there was always name-calling and belittling, and there was never violence, but there was always a lot of it or a lot of verbal abuse. Um definitely with her, and then starting starting on us, but it was always it was never it was never violence, but it was always like you were always aware that he could hurt you if he wanted to. Like he made sure you knew that. Um and uh around around 12 or 13, uh it was actually 12 because that's when I got my first job.

SPEAKER_03: 14:28

Um Wow, what was your first job?

SPEAKER_00: 14:31

I worked at an ice cream shop. Uh, Jamaican, a Jamaican guy there named Mike owned a little ice cream shop. This is in West Palm Beach, Florida. And uh he he saw me around the neighborhood. Um we were in a pretty pretty bad neighborhood. This is now we're in the 80s, and we were in the height of crack, and yes, and we were what everyone around us called crack town.

SPEAKER_03: 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:55

Um, it was, you know, I we I got at 12 years old, I was held up at gunpoint twice. Um the only times I've ever been held up at gunpoint, but they were both there and you know within a few blocks of my house. Um Mike Mike had seen me around the neighborhood. He he recognized me, and uh, I don't know, I don't know why, but he he asked me if I wanted to to come clean up his shop for two hours every day for six bucks or seven bucks or something total. And like, and and he'd give me a sub and a and an ice cream. So, you know, I took that, I started getting my own money, and you know, one of my meals taken care of every day. And I did it seven days a week for two years. Like that was just I I'm very into routine like that. Uh once I find once I establish something, I I do it every day. When I when I run, right now I'm right now I'm out of shape. But when as soon as I decide to get into shape and start running, I will run four miles every day until I stop.

SPEAKER_03: 15:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 15:56

And once I miss a day, I'm toast. It's it's the worst.

SPEAKER_03: 16:00

I'm like that too. I have to have a routine. If I don't, like it just takes me forever to get back going again.

SPEAKER_00: 16:07

Oh, me too. I I have to I have to commit for the long haul.

SPEAKER_01: 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:12

Um, so so that's what I usually do, is I'll I'll balloon up to 200 pounds and then I'll run four miles a day for five months, and then I'll be 165, and I'm and then I say I don't need to run, and then I won't for a year and a half.

SPEAKER_03: 16:28

No, I hear a lot of running is great. Like I had a friend who started running and he started like changing the way he ran. And um, I don't know, he just something happened to him and he just became a different person. And he just said that he really loved just running. And I don't know, running just what it does for some people. I just think it's really neat.

SPEAKER_00: 16:47

I can't run myself, I have a bad knee, but but um I like I like it when I'm doing it when I'm about that second week of of when I start something like that. I uh then I'm great. But but no, those for that first week of it, I I don't like it at all.

SPEAKER_03: 17:03

Yeah, it kills you.

SPEAKER_00: 17:05

Um but I so I I worked for him for for two years. He always made sure I had money in my pocket. He he actually tracked down uh one of the one of the people who robbed me at gunpoint, and uh because I I knew who it was and I told him about it, he he actually because he was friends with the police there, uh helped me file the police report, found the person, they went to prison. I got it was you were 12?

SPEAKER_03: 17:33

You were how old?

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

I was 12.

SPEAKER_03: 17:35

You were 12, and he this guy, I like him already. So you're working for him, and he takes you to help you file a police report.

SPEAKER_00: 17:43

He he had the he called a friend of his in the police force to come and take my report. And then uh at one after the report was filed, uh a couple days later, one of his network of neighborhood locals said, Hey, I you know, I saw I saw the the guy, and uh they he called the same police officer. Police officer showed up. We took a ride down the street to where he was standing outside. Uh and uh and the police arrested him. He pled guilty, and I got a letter a few months later saying that he was serving uh like a two-year prison sentence for it.

SPEAKER_01: 18:20

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 18:21

But yeah, Mike, Mike was a great guy. Um, as long as until I left Florida, I always uh stayed in touch with him. He he was he's one of my young role models. Um I'm loving this right now.

SPEAKER_03: 18:36

I'm sorry, I've like I have to stop here just for a second. I'm loving this right now because I as I'm starting this show, I'm still kind of new. So like as podcaster to podcaster, I guess. I'm just loving this because people are able to talk about this stuff and are able to talk about how they're helping other people. And at the same time, we get to talk about the good people in our lives who did something, who gave a shit. You know what I mean? And I just I don't know, I love this. I just wanted to, I didn't want to like interrupt you too much, but I really just had to say that this is really neat. Just keep going. You're doing awesome. I love this story. I love listening to you talk about this. It's just, I don't know, it's really cool. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 19:16

I I appreciate it. Uh I I you know, I wish there were more people out there who knew about people like Mike. He I, you know, at 12 years old coming from Ohio and you know, uh a really poor upbringing. Like I I was I had a very limited sort of diet and palate. Like I didn't I didn't know about much else.

SPEAKER_01: 19:39

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

But but working for him, uh, you know, I'd get my normal sub every day, but when he was cooking oxtails or jerk chicken or fish head stew or something like that, wow, he he would give it to me and and I I got to eat, you know, some of these some of these things that at the time seemed crazy to me. And now I'm here in I'm here in Columbia. And whenever a new little you know strip mall Jamaican shop opens, I have to go and and try all their stuff to see how it stacks up.

SPEAKER_03: 20:09

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 20:10

And now I'll and now I'll eat anything. And whenever I go anywhere, if I if I go to uh to Mexico or somewhere, then I will eat whatever whatever the locals are eating, whatever's on a whatever's on a cart. If I see other people eating it, I will too. And I get to try some amazing stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 20:34

Yeah, I tried some like really interesting stuff. I had to like go on a really, really restrictive diet. But then that also like led me to like try other things I'd never tried before. And so now I'm always like, oh, let me try it, let me try it. And it's just absolutely yeah, my kids think I'm crazy. They're like, what are you eating? You know, like I'm having a bowl of quinoa, and they're like, Mom, you have worms in your dish. And I was just like, that's so prose. It's like, thanks, you know, for you know, making my meal so nice. But uh, yeah, I love food. I'm always ready to talk about that too. I should probably start a whole other podcast about food.

SPEAKER_00: 21:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 21:09

Anyway, go on, keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 21:11

So uh anyway, around around that time is as I'm you know feeling not only the independence of you know, your parents don't care where you are, but the I can I can start taking care of myself. I can start buying the things I want. Um and I don't have to, you know, I don't have to depend on on these people for me. I I started to realize that as soon as I was done with high school, that's it in my in my 12, 13 year old brain, I I knew that I was stuck with them through high school. And that when I was done with that, I could you know, I could be off on my own and I wouldn't I wouldn't be beholden to them. And and so from from 12 on, I I worked. Um I went to school, you know. I went to high school. I didn't I didn't try very hard. I I had been I had been a pretty exceptional student going through gifted up and up through eighth grade. Um after once I got to high school and had sort of committed to just being out on my own, I actually I I did fine. I mean, it's it's not hard to get uh all B's in in the Florida school system.

SPEAKER_01: 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:28

Uh and I and I did it, you know, throughout, but I never like I never took the SAT, the ACT, anything like that. I never bothered even thinking about college. All I thought about was in June of 1990, I'll be I'll be 17 years old, but I'll be out of high school and I'll be able to I'll be able to leave.

SPEAKER_01: 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:50

And uh so you know, I always had at least at least one job going at all times. Um and I didn't particularly save money. I just got more used to getting all my getting all my own meals and buying my own clothes, deciding you know, making my own decisions.

SPEAKER_03: 23:08

Yeah, just being independent.

SPEAKER_00: 23:10

Buying my own first car and second car, like doing all that stuff, getting getting enough money together to have rent for when I for when I moved out. And uh, so sure enough, uh I graduated, I moved out the next day, and you know, started looking around for work, found a found a job in a factory and stayed there for seven years, and just uh you know, lived like a in uh 17-year-old still uh 24-year-old in South Florida who who isn't you know isn't beholden to anything and can uh party it up and and uh sort of escape from everything. Um around then, you know, I had through all that, he he got worse, and and my and my stepmother was no prize either. Um you know, I mean, I I as I'm older now, I I realized what she was going through, and that times she's you know, that she would lash out at me or like wake me up at 1 a.m. to yell at me while she's drunk for for whatever reason was because she was scared of him and and she needed someone like it's a the whole trickle-down thing, right? Um at the time I completely resented her. Um but you know, as as I got older, it would it and realized what he really was, I I just more pitied her than anything.

SPEAKER_01: 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

And uh, and you know, she she got worse and worse. And and she was the main provider. I mean, he was he worked part-time in a print shop, you know, usually knocked off by noon to go drink and you know, and just wouldn't go back to work. Um, you know, woke up, woke up and drank, stayed, stayed pretty, pretty drunk the whole time, but was very good at handling it. Uh you know, he was way better than her at handling it for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 25:14

He could hold his liquor better.

SPEAKER_00: 25:16

Yeah, and when when you just stay in that state all the time, you get pretty good at it.

SPEAKER_03: 25:21

Yeah. Oh, I know. We had alcoholism in my family too.

SPEAKER_00: 25:27

Well, yeah, I mean, hell, I'm I'm still, you know, I I drink and I I stay very aware of it, but I'm also a creature of habit who loves routine. So I I probably do it too much, but but I do stay aware of it and I and I you know tell myself all the time. I I point out what I'm doing and I and I and I build in like what I feel like are safeguards, they're probably more like signs of alcoholism, when I won't do it while my kids are awake. I won't, or at least I won't ever be drunk while they're awake. They'll never like they've never seen me drunk. Um and and you know, that's that's important to me, even if it's probably a a warning sign.

SPEAKER_03: 26:13

No, but it's awareness is key though. Like, you know, we all have something we're working on, and we all have something that we're struggling with. And awareness is so important. I mean, I remember when I didn't have that, I was just totally doing just whatever. I mean, I wasn't, I never got into drugs or alcohol because I saw what it did to my brother, but um I kind of went the other way and just, you know, got caught up in just not even just suppressing all my feelings and everything. And I wasn't really aware of my own behavior, you know, when I was lashing out and things like that. And so I think that as a kid, you expect your parents to be so, you know, controlled and and everything. And then when they're not, you know, you get angry like you're not supposed to yell at me in the middle of the night when you're drunk, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 27:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 27:01

Yeah. So I and then as a parent myself, you know, I I see that, you know, I see parents more, you know, they're more humanized than they were, you know, when I was four and five years old and and stuff like that. And um, but I think it's good because yeah, you are taking note of it and you are like thinking about it and you are trying to establish boundaries and taking steps to improve it or you know, to keep it from getting worse. And I think that that's good.

SPEAKER_00: 27:32

Yeah, I I think so. Um through through all of this, as I'm as I'm living there, every every couple years or so I would I would uh get sent back up to Ohio to spend time with my mom. And and she was always a a disaster. She she was the um you know the uh self-destructive drunk. I I'm pretty certain who was just hoping that one of the nights she wouldn't wake up. Um and she and I say drunk, but I mean she would do anything, she didn't care. Uh, but I I I always I always loved her. I I remembered, you know, her from my childhood, you know, when when they were still together, that like the the good memories I do have of being home were were times with her, and and you know, we we were pretty close for what it was. Um and you know, it would when I would come up for for a summer or a visit or something like that, it would uh you know, I'd always come back and be dismayed, and and he would, you know, then he'd have two two grown women to disparage in front of me all the time, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:52

Because you know, he'd be telling me how awful she was and has always been, and how awful uh his his new wife or now current wife was.

SPEAKER_01: 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

Um but I never like I never as much as I as much as I ignored the bashing of of the current wife, like I I resented the bashing of of my mom. But eventually, you know, when I I just as I got older, I I got so tired of uh of trying to deal with my mom and realizing that you know one of these days she was just gonna be dead. And so I something flipped in my brain, and I just decided she was. And it would be a lot easier if uh if I thought of it that way. And so she and I just fell out of touch for I don't know, seven years or so. Um I think she showed up maybe once or twice in that time, like she came down to Florida. But but I'd spend I'd maybe go to lunch and it would be very perfunctory, and then they you know, and then she'd be gone and I wouldn't have to think about it again. And and she'd just go right like it was almost like it was almost like we just had a a little episode and then I and I went right back to ig ignoring that she existed.

SPEAKER_01: 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:22

Um but she uh I believe well, I know actually, it was 99. She she and her her current husband now got sober. They've been sober for 20 years. They've they're you know, for for what they do, they're they're pretty successful. She she works for the city and has for 20 years. Uh he's an HVAC guy, and they are they're incredibly supportive of each other. They're a thousand percent non-judgmental of me. And you know, they're they're very, very respectful of the boundaries that with my with my family and my children.

SPEAKER_03: 31:05

Uh-huh. Did they ever have counseling for that? I mean, I don't know. It sounds like they would have, I don't know. They they sound like, you know, maybe they had some counseling, like respecting your boundaries and everything, but um, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 31:18

I think it's I think it's part of the AA program, at least the way they they took it in.

SPEAKER_01: 31:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 31:24

Um, I think those two being together for it and realizing for her like how much she had given up.

SPEAKER_01: 31:32

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 31:32

Um, you know, I think I think not I was I was married uh uh a few years after she was I was married in 2003. So she'd been sober for four years. I think we'd been talking again for two. And I I didn't tell her I was getting married or invite her or anything like that. And and I think that might have might have set a baseline there. Um, but I you know, I wasn't ready to be disappointed and I wasn't a hundred percent sold on it yet.

SPEAKER_01: 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

I think I think when I got sold on it with her for for sure, was after we had our first son, which would have been 2005, um he she came to visit. We were living in Virginia at the time, northern Virginia, and she uh she and her husband drove over to to come visit. You know, they they asked, you know, it it she was already trying to be as respectful as she could. She's like, anytime I can come, it you know, you just tell me if it's if it's two hours or or a week or whatever, I you know, we'll stay somewhere else. Um you know, we'll take whatever we can get. Uh she came to visit, and uh she she still smoked a lot then. And and uh my my wife and told her, you know, as soon as she got there, you know, you're not holding the baby unless you are wearing clean clothes and you're washed. Like um, he he had been born with some with some difficulties. He's great now, but he was he was a month early. So so there were there were issues. But so she would, you know, she'd go through the whole routine to do it. Um but then uh she one of the times, one of the first times she was holding him, he he was he just kept coughing, and and she gave him back, and she, you know, she didn't smoke much at all the rest of the trip there, uh smoked like a chimney the whole way back to Ohio, and then and then uh never smoked again.

SPEAKER_03: 33:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

She she was you know, and she was like, you know, next time you see me, you're not gonna have to worry about it at all. And and she just stopped. And that was like her her crutch for quitting alcohol was at least I can still smoke.

SPEAKER_03: 33:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:00

Um and and she threw it all out because she didn't want she didn't want something there that was in the way and that she felt like it was selfish to to even want to do it. And so at that point, I was like, I was like, you know what, you're welcome anytime, and uh, and I'm I'm really glad that that you're in that you're in their lives, uh-huh. Um in his life at the time. We've had a second sense. Um but so so that was that was my estrangement with her, which was largely, largely just by not being near each other, and you know, it was it was pretty elective. She the whole just like when she gave me away, she gave me away because that made it easy for her to to go do what she wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 34:48

And uh and she knew that at the time I I idolized him. She probably thought I was in better hands. And honestly, I mean I maybe I was. Um, and I I brought him out. I wanted him to to meet my wife to be um my fiance. And he basically got there and just tried to start a fight with everything, any, anything and everything. He he's always he he says he's being devil's advocate, but he's really just trying to goad you into the argument that he craves.

SPEAKER_01: 36:24

Huh.

SPEAKER_00: 36:25

And I've gotten way better at avoiding conflict in this time, so I'm not taking any of his bait. And we're and by the end of he, I think he was there for four days, and by the by the second half of it, I'm just not talking. I just he can say whatever he wants, and I'm just not answering.

SPEAKER_03: 36:44

And you're just like gray rocking it. Have you heard that term? No, it's like they call it well, I grew up in a very narcissistic, like abusive home, and um, there's this term called gray rocking it, where you just try not to respond to somebody who is trying to like pick at you, and you know, all they say, oh, just ignore the bully or whatever. Well, this is kind of a like more severe form of it, like just pretending like it doesn't bother you, like I don't know, kind of passive, maybe shut down, kind of.

SPEAKER_00: 37:14

Yeah, like being stone, just yeah, that makes sense. Um, but it it got to the point where he just to try to goad me into a response, he I I remember it distinctly. There was something on the news and they showed a a black suspect from a crime, right?

SPEAKER_01: 37:37

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 37:38

And and he and he turns and he's like, you know, if we just sent them all to prison, we wouldn't have to deal with this. And I'm like, you know, you can stay somewhere else. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll go, I'll buy a hotel. Like, I'll pay for a hotel room. Um, and and uh he's like, Oh, you disagree. And I'm like, I can't do this. So I just I I actually left my own apartment and and went and went somewhere else, just went driving around or walking or something. I I used to walk a lot there for some reason, even though nobody walks in LA.

SPEAKER_02: 38:15

Um walking in LA.

SPEAKER_00: 38:18

Right. Uh so I I uh you know just gritted my teeth till he till I could drive him back to the airport uh the next day or two days later, whatever it was. And he he went back and really I just I just stopped interacting with him. Um I wouldn't I wouldn't not answer the phone if he called or something like that for the first couple years. And you know, I when I moved back across coast to to Virginia where you know where we had our first kid, it was when we when we had him, and you know, I knew like my my wife's parents were coming to visit, and my mom was coming to visit, and I thought, if he tries to come here, like and and poison the my family, yeah, I I can't like I just can't have that. And so I you know, I just avoided it at first, you know. They kept uh he kept asking when I was gonna come down there, and uh, you know, he would try and call, and if I accidentally answered the phone or something like that, I'd it would just be super curt and cut it off. Um and then uh in 2009 had my our second son, and around the same time, the daughter that he had with my stepmother, who was sixteen years younger than me, uh, we're fairly estranged as well because we we we grew, you know, we called each other brother and sister, but we shared absolutely no blood, and we and she was there for you know the last few months before I moved out and yeah. Went off on my own.

SPEAKER_03: 40:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:02

Um, and she also adores him. But um, but around the around that time, she was was uh going to school for she was trying to get into a school for visual effects, and I I don't think I ever mentioned that they were also the dad and stepmom were also very bad with money and managed to mortgage an eighty thousand dollar house they bought in 1980 into a 345,000 debt. Oh my goodness, like they were they were doing that and living, you know, constantly remote refinancing and getting money out of it and somehow being allowed to. So, you know, they were crazy in debt. And he uh and he called and I for some reason answered, and he was telling me that she wanted to go to school, and uh and he wanted me to be the the co-signer on her loan. And so I I I wanting to do right by the sister, I at least I I called an attorney, showed him the loan that that they were showing me, and he said, if she drops out, you're on the hook for all of this. And uh, and they and then they can collect it immediately. You're immediately on the hook if if she screws this up.

SPEAKER_01: 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:31

The way the way this loan is is worded. And uh, and so I I called him back and I said, you know, I'm I've talked it over with uh with my family and my lawyer, and I'm I'm not gonna do it. And just I got the full brunt of what of what a woman would have gotten. Like to him, I had dropped to the level of of woman, which is just the worst in his in his mind.

SPEAKER_01: 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:58

I mean, maybe, I mean, maybe even a black woman, like, and this is all like this is me projecting him. This is not how I feel. Um remember, I'm the guy who likes to interview homeless people and buy the bunch and take them out to nice places. Um so he just he let me let me have it. And again, it it was a lot of the themes from when I was a kid about, you know, that I was I was selfish and and uh I only only cared about me, and I, you know, I I didn't care about family and and and you know giving my everything to the family and and that uh I was gonna die, you know, I was gonna die alone and and lonely and and you know, good luck with that. Um and I was you know, so I hung up and you know, a couple days later, calls again, asks if I've reconsidered this. Was like just a voicemail, you know, like a voicemail that was like, you know, hope you hope you've changed your mind, whatever, and then morphed into you piece of you piece of trash, you selfish, worthless person. Like all all without me even being there. Um so at that point, I've just I've I've never talked to him since. Um he I get an email once in a while, because unfortunately, my email is real easy to figure out. So I get I get one from him uh once in a while that just says, you know, like, hey, thought uh don't understand why you think your life was so bad. Uh and you know, I think my life is fantastic now, like getting him out of it and and you know, getting getting meeting my wife, getting married, and realizing that I wasn't beholden to any sort of family that was thrown on me as a kid who had no choice, getting like have knowing that I can just have my bedrock family here and let in who I want was was probably the most empowering thing of all this. You know, like realizing you, you know, you don't have to make way for toxic people in your life. It's it's like the the argument that you hear a lot now that um you know that you have to give all viewpoints uh a chance to to tell you what they think. But you know, I don't have to I don't have to listen to someone disparage uh other other genders or the idea of gender fluidity or or other races or you know or any whatever other you want it to be. I don't have to listen to you disparage them because that's that's not your that's not a world view. That's not that's not something that I that I have to give credence to.

SPEAKER_01: 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:51

And it's the same way with him. I don't I don't have to let him in uh just by virtue of he, you know, he used whatever portion of his paycheck to to supply food and let me live in his house when you know I never really had a say in the matter.

SPEAKER_03: 45:08

Yeah. So after you stop talking to your dad, like what is your life? I mean, I know you said your life is great. Well, tell me about like tell me about how things change after you leave a toxic relationship.

SPEAKER_00: 45:25

Um I poured myself, you know, after after the initial seven years or so of uh factory work and and drinking and clubbing in South Florida, uh I managed to still never never went to school. Um I managed to weasel my way into a sports clerk job at the uh Palm Beach Post, which was the paper I read growing up. I love the paper and uh and I I loved sports. I I uh had a Michael Jordan tattoo on my leg. Um I I got in there and what I they gave me this this part-time job as an agate clerk, which is like typing in box scores, um, taking taking the the phone call from the high school coaches so that they can report their their results, that sort of thing, and then writing like a little two-paragraph story based on it.

SPEAKER_03: 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:27

Um so that that was the job, and they said uh it was 30 hours a week, seven bucks an hour. Uh it was a con like uh contract position, wasn't you know, no benefits. So I just I poured myself into that. I did that. I went in probably 70 hours a week, even though, even though I was only working 30, and I just learned as much as I could. Um, this would have been 90, 97, 98. Uh and I I got a call, one of one of our my favorite person at that job, a a senior editor at that at the paper, left to go to CBS Sports Line on the internet and and was laughed out of the building. But he was also the guy who when I would when I was trying to learn what it was like to be an editor um and a writer, I he was the guy who who helped me and gave me answers and and listened to my questions, right?

SPEAKER_01: 47:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 47:26

So a few months after he left, um it was the weirdest thing. I I went to I went to the the boss of the sports department and I said, Hey, I've been here for a year and a half now. I've you know, I I'm I think I'm I think I'm learning and I I'd love to be an editor someday. I'm not talking about today, but is there any chance I can ever work full time here? And he said, Well, do you have a degree? I said, No, I I don't. I just I just come here. And uh and he said, Well, no, you know, I we only hire college graduates full time. So I said, Well, I guess I guess I quit. Like, here's my two weeks, uh, I'm giving you two weeks notice. And I went back and sat at my desk wondering what the hell, like how I'm gonna find some some new career that um and I got a phone call, and it was the guy who had been like literally after that conversation, I sat down and I got a call, and uh it was the guy who had been laughed out of the building. He's he's still at he's at CBS Sports Line.

SPEAKER_01: 48:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 48:31

They they had CBS had the Nogano Olympics that year, the winter Olympics, and they were they were gonna ramp up to give it a good online presence. Yeah, and they and they wanted uh some full-time temps for three months while they did it to help bolster the staff. And he said, he said, is there any chance you could do it? I know it, I know you'd probably have to leave there, but it, you know, who knows, it might lead to something.

SPEAKER_01: 48:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:55

And I said, hey, I could start in two weeks. And and I after that, I worked on I worked in sports media on the internet for the next 20 years. Well, almost 20, yeah. Uh 19 years. I I got laid off a year and a half ago. Uh-huh. Uh and and most of that I worked at foxsports.com.

SPEAKER_01: 49:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 49:19

They uh they were one of the companies who who did the whole pivot to video thing.

SPEAKER_03: 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:27

And because of Facebook inflating video views and that sort of thing. For whatever reason they did it. I don't, I don't mind. I was I was ready to go by then. Um, I I I made a joking post on Facebook after I after I got laid off that uh, you know, I were I made it almost 20 years on the internet, and that was my first layoff. I had survived all the others. Certainly in in internet media, they're like AOL for a while there did a layoff every year.

SPEAKER_01: 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:57

Um I I survived at least four at Fox. Um, but this time I really wanted to go and I was petrified they were gonna keep me because then I'd have then I'd you know either have to stay and suck it up or I quit. And and you know, that's such a that's such a problem to have that I'd have to stay and and have a you know pretty lucrative salary. Meanwhile, I'm I I didn't even mention the whole the last 12, 11 years I was there, I was working remotely here in Columbus, Ohio. So I was just working out of my basement. Uh I would do from 5 a.m. till noon six days a week. And I I would I would be alone. I was I was they were all West Coast, I was the only East Coast person. So I pretty much I would I would get to do stuff on my own. They would show up, people there would start showing up on the last couple hours of my shift.

SPEAKER_03: 50:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:51

So I actually I'd get to hand my stuff off and I'd get to leave on time. They they actually had to like stay late and work, you know, real hours of like I say real hours, but you know, when I was in office, I would put in 10, 12, 13 hour shifts all the time. But now I was just doing my my shift and being done. And uh that sounds like that sounds nice to me. Well, yeah, it'd be like I'm done, done it and then catch a nap for three hours, and then when I get up, my kids are coming home from school, and I've got from three o'clock on with my kids. Like I didn't that sounds amazing. Yeah, I got the perks of being a stay-at-home dad and a paycheck, and it was and it was great. Um and it did, and and I'll tell you the 5 a.m. start did a a great job of curbing my my worse tendencies, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 51:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

Because yeah, because I was dedicated to the routine of heck, I like six days a week because it only gave me one weekend day to to mess up.

SPEAKER_03: 51:52

Yeah, yeah, to feel like you're off.

SPEAKER_00: 51:55

Right. So yeah. So when it when the time came and they laid me off, it was it was fine. I I had a 16-month uh buyout, I think, like 16 months of pay. They got I gotten a lump sum. So uh you know, took a grabbed the kids, took a road trip in the summer, and we we went all around the uh the south, drove, you know, drove around, visited uh old friends, and visited my brother, the one who's six years younger than me, uh visited him down in in Tallahassee, spent a few days there, got to go see the um oh why my blanket on the name. The uh it's in Nashville. It's the it there's another one in Parthenon. Went to the the Parthenon in Nashville. Do you know about that?

SPEAKER_03: 52:42

I've heard about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:44

It's it's wild. It's I mean, going in there, it's like being transported. It's pretty cool. Um, so you know, we got we got to do that sort of stuff, and it the it was so funny. Just like when I just like when I at the paper when I quit and sat down at my desk and was offered a life-changing job, while we were here, my wife, who is uh in in pharma, she she works for, she also has worked from home this this whole time. My kids have never seen anyone go to work. Um she uh she her company we knew that we knew my layoff was coming, at least we hoped I would I would make the cut. Um she had been working as uh as a contractor for them through this whole time as a consultant. And they said we are cutting out contractors, and if you want to stay with us, you you have to go full time. She had been she had been consulting 32 hours a week. So she did four days, had Thursdays off. They said basically you have to start working Thursdays and get benefits. Oh darn and and we'll still pay you your same amount because now we're not gonna pay the the company that's taking the cut uh through you.

unknown: 54:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 54:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 54:04

So literally when HR called to to uh let me go, I I she was upstairs in her office. I just sent her a message on G on G chat to uh that hey, here's the layoff. And I was on the phone with HR for about half an hour, and she had already told her HR person because she she went full time two weeks before that, and they switched our insurance over.

SPEAKER_03: 54:32

That's funny. So it was just like smooth.

SPEAKER_00: 54:35

Right. So so now um so now I I'm focused. I like I don't want to do sports media, which is what I'm doing right now. I'm I'm freelancing for for a new sports media company.

SPEAKER_01: 54:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 54:54

But I but I'm barely doing anything. Like I they it's an old friend, a guy from sports line who started his own company, wanted some help, and I said, I said, sure, I'll try it out. They they were giving me like 32 hours a week, and I and I was like, you know, I don't want to do it that much. Like I don't want to freelance that much.

SPEAKER_03: 55:14

Um so that's a lot of work to freelance full time.

SPEAKER_00: 55:18

So so instead, I I just set some some boundaries. I said, look, I'll I'm not doing any more late nights. Um it it affects me too much. It it it goes into the next day when I'm when I'm staying up late to make sure that we've got all the West Coast stuff covered and I'm going to sleep at four. That's ridiculous. Um, so I said, I'll if you want, I'll work mornings. Um, and you know, I'll work up to four mornings a week, four hours, four four-hour days a week. And and I've even cut it back since then. Now I've now I've got it that I'll I'll only do it uh like Friday, Saturday, Sunday for four hours. And really, I it was getting in the way of other things I wanted to do. I I wanted to, you know, I'm not going crazy with with uh the podcast thing, but I do mine. I I produce another one for a local doctor here who's dealing with ovarian cancer. She wanted it as a way to keep her friends and family and employees and stuff uh aware of what's going on in her life, but without having to like talk to people all the time.

SPEAKER_03: 56:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:29

So so uh, you know, she and I worked together and I I you know I edit, record, produce hers, uh, and we we came, you know, we came to a a deal there. So I guess I freelance for for her as well. I started a little LLC here to you know to to work all this through. Um and now, you know, is I'm not all that aggressive about finding customers or starting podcasts or or even developing my own all that much. I I do a lot of other stuff. Um I'm finding I'm finding a lot more value in my time volunteering places. Um I do I do at least one one day a week as a as an escort at a Planned Parenthood. Um and I I I've met a lot of uh a lot of it's unfortunately it's mostly women who are involved in the in the reproductive rights scene. But I but I've met all these all these women now that are that are strong activist women that like that would never have put up with the with the stuff that I that I saw as a as a kid, you know, and yeah, and I see what they care about. And I see that they're they're 10 times more passionate and active as me. And yet, you know, I could I could show up one day a week and uh and I and I'm like a hero, you know? It's it's the it's the funniest thing. I've just I feel like I'm just becoming a lot more aware of all this. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 58:08

So now no, I like that you bring that up because I mean it's I mean it's true. It's like it should not be a segregated issue because pregnancy is not a it's not necessarily a spontaneous thing unless you're the Virgin Mary. Right, you know, it's I mean, we need more men involved in that. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_00: 58:25

Nobody, nobody tried to uh talk me out of my vasectomy, much less yell at me or call me a murderer. And you know, if you if you really think about it, right through theoretically, a vasectomy eliminates the chance for way more pregnancies, right, than an abortion. Like that's just one. Like my vasectomy, there are uh there are an untold number of pregnancies I could I could have caused after that, right? And and I've and I've shut off I've shut off the world from all of them. But you know, I'm a I'm a middle-aged white dude. I mean, I could I could flip sides and they would take me in a heartbeat. You know? But but I've just been you know that we the whole family does uh does a uh one week one night a week. We we work together in a I call it a soup kitchen downtown. It's it's a it's billed as a community meal. Um but it's basically a bunch of a bunch of volunteers at a at a church who will feed anyone who comes in, and and we I just started taking both kids there and and my wife because not not not that my wife needed any any lessons in it, but like my kids needed to to know that the their world isn't reality for a lot of people, that I that we've sheltered them from from a lot of it. Like I I grew up pretty hardened dealing with with what was going on in my own family and what. I saw in my neighborhood, and these kids are, you know, if they break their Xbox controller, chances are I'm gonna go get a new one that day because you know they gotta sleep sometime and I want to play too. Yeah. But but like I wanted them to see that there are kids here who don't have any idea of a life like that, right? They're they're they're seeing they're seeing these people, and it's been especially for my older one, it's been it's been huge. He's he's very he's very empathetic, and he's very he's he's morphed into a very capable volunteer there, where he'll he'll take any job on the list, whatever they ask him to do. There's not one on the list that he can't handle. Right? Um and he now goes off on his own. We still my younger one is only 10. He still stays with either me or mom or one of the one of the other volunteers who we've who are there every week that we've gotten to know.

unknown: 1:01:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:05

And again, that's like I'm I'm an atheist. I I grew up not religious at all. I I the only reason I I would do this is that this I feel like this church is in it for the right reasons. They they have a a lesbian associate pastor, although it's a Methodist church, so we'll see how long that lasts after this week. But they they accept anyone. They've got a they've got a family shelter under the church for for single women or or single moms. Um they they this church is not making money. It's it's there for for the people. And no, but nobody there's ever tried to to preach any dogma to me or anything at all. Like they they just that I consider them friends and I and I support what you know their what they need for their beliefs is fine by me because that's not it's I'm as pro-choice about that as anything else. Um you know, I just I just find more value in that. I love I love being flexible and able to to jump in and and help out anywhere around town. I we had we had a Confederate rally at our state house last week. We're in Ohio, it's the we were the union. We have we have a KKK rally coming to Dayton in a month or two. Like and I'm and I'm like, I I'm so I'm so uh astonished by all this that it feels disingenuous to go out there and and try and get a regular nine to five and and you know go hang out in some office and pretend I'm something I'm not now. I I'm trying to I'm trying to learn how to be what I am.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:56

Yeah. Yeah, no, I I totally like relate with you on that level because all my life I was driven by somebody else's purpose for what they wanted for me to do for them, you know. And I was never allowed to explore my own desires and my own dreams. I had them, but they were locked tight. And it wasn't until you know, I became estranged for my parents at what 31, 32, I think, 30, like almost, I don't know. I don't even know anymore. I don't keep track anymore, but 32, I think. And um, I didn't even know who I was because I had been so used to being who they wanted me to be. And once I got away from that, I started to kind of step into like my support groups and stuff. And even though it wasn't fun listening to everyone talk about how painful it was for them, I couldn't stay out of those groups. I just I had to be there and I had to listen and I had to talk. And so I feel like I'm just kind of bringing it to a broader audience. I mean, not like I want everyone listening to my stuff, but just because I want everyone to have the opportunity to say, hey, this is me, this is who I am, and this is what I can do. Can you please let me help or help me achieve this? You know, let me help you and just, you know, respect each other. It's just it shouldn't be that difficult. No, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:28

It's it's funny because I I was thinking when we when we talked about doing this, that uh one of one of the things I I saw you mention was uh that there was sort of a focus on what resources could help somebody or you know something like that. And and when I look, I I consider the dad to be my my real estrangement. And like I don't want any resources to fix that. Like it's I fixed it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:02

Yeah, like yeah, yeah, not even fix it, but you know, like I was handle like the feelings that you get, you know, like sometimes like I'm sure maybe for you, it was you were so ready to just like cut it off, you know. And for me, like I wasn't quite ready emotionally. I think I don't know, just because maybe I'm more like a super emotional person, but you know, I had to take some time to like detach emotionally from them. And like that was hard. And I was like, I don't know how to do this. How do how do I not be someone's daughter anymore? You know, and I think I just you were so probably so used to kind of just being on your own. Like you said, you were like independent and everybody just kind of let you do what you wanted. Well, you know, a lot of things for me were dictated, and so you know, I didn't have that kind of freedom. And I guess like, I guess what I mean by resource is more like I want to like create a buffet, I guess. Like take what you need and like leave the rest for somebody else. And and so, you know, that's why every person I talk to, I just I love what they're doing. I love hearing about them and I love hearing what they accomplished and what they went through and what they're doing now because it it gives it gives me assurance that I'm you know doing an okay thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:15

Right. I think giving yourself permission to to do it is is the biggest thing. Like the thing I struggled with so much was was sort of releasing the the the shackles of of ownership, like I like feeling like they like they had some sort of right to me just because that's in in in my mom's case because she happened to give birth to me, and in this guy's case, because he'd been given me. Like he never I was never adopted.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:48

Yeah, I was gonna ask, like, were there any like no paper sign? You were just there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:54

I mean, they were they were aging wannabe hippies that uh that you know could do something like that. It was it was a different time for sure. Yeah, I don't I don't well I'm sure you could do that today, but I doubt it would be as likely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:10

Um you know it it's funny too many cameras for just someone to just leave their kid with somebody nowadays, and you know, like they want to know your kid's social security number, and you know, I don't know. Yeah, how I it just amazes me how you just like went through that and no one even knew that like you weren't with a parent or like a biological parent.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:32

Right. And it's it's funny, like I told I told my wife earlier tonight, we did we just had our 16th anniversary. Uh it's congratulations as longer is when uh when I told her, I was like, you know, I'm a little I'm a little nervous, like I I don't tell really anyone my story. I've like I was like, I I tell you, and that's about it. She's like, you don't even tell me. Uh I said, well, I I I said I have told you. I said, just you know, it's in bits and pieces. And and you've been present for like she's she was a big help in getting me to to realize I don't owe people anything. That that I'm allowed to have some, you know, some reasonable success in my life without without feeling like I have to uh one give it give it all to them or also give all my emotional availability to them, like or let them affect or let them affect my emotional availability at home, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:33

Uh-huh. Um yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:35

But but I you know, I do. I like randomly I'll tell her I'll tell her stories and and she just it you know she just wants to wants to cry. And and to me, it's like we had we passed a Wendy's the other day, and and I don't remember what about it made me say something, but I told her about being eight, eight or nine years old. It was before I went to Florida, it was here in Ohio, and um you know I was I was hungry and I'd like I would go sometimes days without really ever seeing my parents sometimes at that point. And uh but we lived at my grandmother's house. There was stuff there if I really needed to eat or something, but for a while I I saw that Wendy's was doing one of those um peel-off games on their cups and on their fries.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:31

And so I would go hang out at Wendy's and I would watch people eat, and I would, and if they didn't do their their pull-up prizes, because I think that sort of thing was pretty new around then, I think that that sort of marketing technique, if they if they weren't doing it, I would go over and ask them if I could throw away their their stuff. And and then I would uh on the way I'd I'd sneak off the strips and throw other stuff away and see if I if I won any food. Um or if they or if they you know threw it away and didn't let me, or if I saw it, like I was very keen. I could I I was always good at it watching everyone around me and and paying attention to what they were doing. And so if I saw someone throw one away, you know, I'd wait till they left, wait till employees weren't, you know, it walked away from the from the register for a moment, and I'd go reach in the trash, grab it, see if I see if I got something, and you know, I'd get a couple burgers and a frosty and a fry, and and I'd and then I'd go back to doing whatever I wanted and you know, make it home in time to sleep and get up for school. Like, and I'd probably go days like that without you know, and it it wasn't that it wasn't that I was you know dooky from season four in the wire having to you know having to do this. I I'm I'm certain I had family members, aunts and uncles, and my grandma that would have that would have made sure I always had something. But like, I don't know. I this was a way to eat too, you know, and and so to me, like I tell her, I tell her the story, and and you know, she she grew up she grew up on campus at at Stanford, like her parents are are real professional people, and uh and like the the stories like that give her a totally different feeling than they do for me. It it was almost it's it's nostalgic for me. It's it's me living by my wits, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:34

Yeah, you're thinking, oh, they're throwing free food in the garbage, what the heck? Like, I'm gonna go get it. And then like, you know, when I tell my husband things, you know, that I did, he's like, What the fuck? Right, like why were you doing? Like, you shouldn't have ever had to get to that point. And then I'd be like, Yeah, but I I did and I survived, you know, and yeah, gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:57

Now I wouldn't so every time you see a Wendy's now, I never would have reached in and taken food out of there. I want to I want to make that clear. Like this was this was in my eight-year-old, eight, nine-year-old, whatever, entrepreneurial skills. Like, I can Wendy's is delicious, and and I could eat it for free because these suckers don't know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:20

And uh, you know, that's that's what I did. It's it's a miracle, it's a miracle I was not abducted in the 70s, like because I was I spent all my time out among random adults and you know, just taking, you know, taking care of myself, you know, and I'm not I'm not a big guy. I was never, you know, I don't think I won many fights. I've again I I evaded almost almost any s any kind of trouble. Um so so you know, it's it's funny now to be to be raising a couple of kids who are you know, again, I was I was I was pretty smart. Um I let I let a lot of it go to waste in terms of of schooling, but now I've got I've got two kids that are smarter than I ever was, and you know, watching you know, watching them learn a whole different way than I did because you know mine was so experiential and necessary like you know, I I don't want to throw like I don't want to say like necessary for survival. Again, like I always I always I I cringe at at overselling it, you know. It was just but but there are times when we're at that at that meal on Wednesday night and you know there are a couple people, it's usually fine. Every now and then we we get someone who who's troubling and starts a fight or something, and yeah, and I like I I see everything happening around me and I look at my kids who have never who have never felt threatened or in danger for real. Like yeah, yeah, and I wonder and I wonder about it. Um but I I'm sure I I get evidence all the time that they're that they're gonna be just fine and that you know you adapt you adapt to the world you're you're growing up in. Hell, I'm I am more scared of the world that they're growing up in than the one I did. And I'm not even talking, I'm not even talking about like politics.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:32

I'm I mean that oops, that should be like the internet too. There's some crazy stuff on the internet, like after kids. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:40

Scary um but the the the internet and the the the drugs that that you can run into today, the the you know fringe fringe groups and and people that can convince you of things, like they are they're growing up like we had years at a time, we had long stretches where nothing really changed. Um the summer of 1981 was no different really than the summer of 1982 for for a 10-year-old, right? Yeah, things are changing for these kids all the time, and and they're being totally dismissed by by a large swath of adults as as entitled and useless and and bratty and like they're just growing up in the world that they've been given. Yeah, it's you know, and and they're think about it imagine trying to get through your life uh after social media, and you know, if if if social media had been around all this time, if you if you were uh you know, imagine being a 13-year-old in in middle school or high school and being and being made fun of not just by the kid in this one class, but but online and mocked all over school for things, you know, like oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:05

If AOL had come out like a couple years before, like a certain, you know, like a two, three years before, then I probably wouldn't have, you know, I probably wouldn't have been taken out of my home when I was seven. Yeah, you'll have to listen to the first season, like I'll talk about it. It's pretty, it's kind of funny, but like not, you know, like us traumatized kids, like we can laugh about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:29

But um, you know, like yeah, if I'd had the internet, I mean things would have been really different for me. And so I try not to give my kids such a hard time because yeah, it is the work they've been given. And on the other hand, it's like they've also they're also doing things like I couldn't afford to go to school for on the iPad. And they're just like, my my son, he's like, he's like DJing it up, and he's like, Mom, mama, write you a song for your show. I was like, do it, man, go for it, you know. But like, you know, the parental settings are on, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:01

Absolutely. The uh, I mean, the world, the world is is so much more open to them in that in that regard. If and and to all of us, you know, this is a perfect example. If you wanted to, if you wanted to do this show on the radio 30 years ago, uh you would have I got offered a radio show at one point, and I'm like, oh yeah, look at me. And then uh and then it dawned like once they explained it to me, it was, yeah, if you can go get this much advertising money for for a show, then then we'll give you an hour slot. And I was like, wait a minute, you guys said you just really liked me. Like, I don't think you I don't think you even know me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:39

Um but but now if you think you have something to say, if you if you think you're funny, you can you can it's simple as go to Twitter and be funny and and get famous for being funny on Twitter, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:55

If if if you can if you can make memes that people uh like and enjoy and laugh at, you can make a name for yourself. If you're a singer, you don't have to go through the gatekeepers of of music anymore. You don't have to go through the gatekeepers of of of Hollywood or TV. You can make your creation and put it on YouTube, you can put it on your own site, you don't even have to go through YouTube, but it's like I that's that's what always drew me to the internet. What I love about it, I I think I think it was a meritocracy. I think it's becoming a little different now, but but ultimately, if if you make something that people want, there's no one to stop you from getting it out there anymore.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:43

Yeah, nobody, you know, just take it from me. Like seriously, just take it from me. I mean, I when I wanted to do this, I was like, ah, this is gonna get lost in some hole on the internet, you know, nobody's gonna find it, you know, or it's gonna take years for it to catch on. And you know, once I just started saying what I was doing, be like, yeah, my podcast is estrangement, and I was expecting the normal, like, oh, that sucks, you know. But people were like, What? You know, like you're talking about that? Um yeah, and so it's it's kind of cool. I've been getting a lot of encouragement and stuff like that. And so yeah, it's like if you want to do something, do it. It's like I was always afraid to be in front of people, but I do have I did have talent and I didn't want to waste it. And everybody's like, you should use it, you should use it. And I said, Well, I don't know what to do. I'm kind of afraid of people and I'm introverted, but I love talking with people, and I just feel like the more and more I do this, I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do. It's really weird, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:37

It's it's it's fun. Yeah, it's it's therapeutic, uh, and it gives me, you know, gives me and obviously I think yours is is going to be way more produced than than mine. Mine but you will too, though.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:54

You because you're gonna get, you know, we're gonna hit you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:58

Well it It's it's funny. This'll be this'll be the first time that that mine gets pitched because again, I don't I don't tell people. I I think I was six episodes in before my wife realized I was doing it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:10

Really?

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:12

Well no, she knew because I because I actually bought like I spent a couple grand on on equipment and a nice computer.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:20

Yeah, I'm sure that didn't go faster so easy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:23

But hey, she uh if it's something it's something I wanted to do and try and she didn't bat an eye. Um you know she's uh she's been with me every every step of the way. She'll never show up on the show. She has no interest in that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:40

So well, if you want to, if you wanted to take a couple minutes and kind of maybe give it a little pick.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:47

I would love it if uh if people uh followed me on Twitter, um at Karowak Smith, K-E-R-O-U A-C Smith. And uh you can find my podcast on all the all the places you find them, all the podcatchers, is Karowac to the future. Uh we do it I say we because in my last six or seven, we've I've got a co-host, uh shotgun Mike Hostetler, who is a bizarro person. And uh we we hang out, we have fun, we we talk about lately we talk about movies, um, all the Marvel movies, we talk about comic books, we watch uh strange movies like An Evening with Beverly Lough Lynn is uh a great indie movie that came out sort of last year, didn't actually play anywhere, but it's but it's on demand and it was great. Um and you know, then occasionally we you know we'll stop and we'll talk about uh we'll talk about abortion or or Ocasio Cortez and and the you know the hypocrisy around around the people that that say things about her, or we'll talk about the Covington Catholic kids and then never release it because we don't want to call 16-year-olds assholes. And but but you know, we did it and didn't release it, and that's the therapy part for that one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:12

Yeah, yeah. It's like sometimes you say things that you know are just coming out because it's what you feel in the moment, you know, it's not necessarily what your code of ethics is, and and um you know, that's another thing. It's like I hope that our listeners can be very forgiving. This is very, very difficult to talk about all this stuff, right? You know, this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:34

Well, remember, when it when it comes to to all this, I'm the one who's who's like the pro-estrangement cheerleader. Uh if if you can if if estrangement will make your life better, then then go for it with no apologies. Like it in my book, like if if you need to get away from a toxic person, like you don't need to you don't need to think about that they're your their father, mother, sister, brother, whatever, husband, wife. You should estrange yourself from people who have a negative effect on you. Um and and and just like my mom, they they can if they if they redeem themselves or if your view changes somehow, if you you know, you realize, oh, you know what, I I was an asshole when I was a kid. Like, that maybe maybe you're the one there that needs to come back in that's in that situation. But I think I think you know, I think we know what we are, and admitting it to ourselves and admitting what other people are to us for real. Like, I I think it's it's an empowering thing. And uh I it's made my life better. Um it made my life better doing it, it made my life better for giving one, and it made and it keeps my life better continuing another.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:53

Well, it was so great to have you on my show. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:56

It was a pleasure. It's nice to say all this all together what for the first time, probably.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:02

Really?

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:02

I think so. I don't think I've ever I don't think I've ever gone that in depth all at once.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:08

Wow, that's pretty cool. You'll your wife will have to listen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:13

Right, she will. She would listen to this one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:16

She's probably like, I never knew that. You never told me. Yeah, right. Well, thank you for coming on the show again. Um, you were listening to When the Bell Breaks.