Lexi's Can Of Worms Part 1

In this episode, Lexi, the show's regular host, opens up about her story of estrangement. Part 1 focuses on her childhood trauma, and the effects of having one or more family members diagnosed with mental illness.


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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:08

You are listening to When the Bow Breaks. If you'd like to contact us, you can do so by sending an email to wtbb podcast at gmail.com. If you'd like to support the show, leave us a five-star rating on iTunes. Welcome to When the Bow Breaks with your guest host, AC Fisher. So obviously today we're doing something a little bit different in that Alexis is guesting on her own show.

SPEAKER_01: 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 0:40

So Alexis, welcome to When the Bow Breaks.

SPEAKER_01: 0:43

Thank you. You're so hospitable. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_03: 0:49

It's always interesting entertaining somebody in their own studio.

SPEAKER_01: 0:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 0:54

It's uh So we'll skip the normal formalities. We know who you are. Now we want to hear what you're all about. So several weeks ago you interviewed me for this show. And the little bits that you were able to share from your own story and listening to mine, I found actually quite fascinating. It gave me a little bit of a glimpse into you. And as soon as your pilot episode went live, I couldn't actually wait to get into that and hear a little bit more about you, but I actually found that I was really wanting for more. And I can't help but think that maybe a lot of the other listeners are sort of in the same position. I mean people come on your show, they talk to you, and we hear so much about them, but we just get all these little teasers about Alexis. I mean we have a general idea about like why you wanted to do the show, what your goals are. But I I think we all sort of are curious, you know, what makes you tick? Like where did this whole thing start? You know, take us back to the beginning. Let's just go back to, you know, when you were just a glimmer in the eyes of your mother and father.

SPEAKER_01: 2:17

Okay. Well, when or before I was a glimmer, um it I don't want to go too much into it because it would take friggin' forever, but uh there uh my parents married in the 60s and then they had my older brother and sister, like late 60s, early 70s, and then 10 years later they had me. But like during that time, some stuff happened, like in my family. Uh when my older brother, uh, who's 11 years older than me, my sister's 14 years older than me, when my older brother was uh still in my mother's womb, my father had had uh an affair with someone at work, which produced uh a child, a son.

SPEAKER_02: 3:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 3:01

Um so that was something that I didn't know about until I was in high school when my mother told me and she explained that she was really stressed during the pregnancy because of that. And so without her really telling me too much more, I kind of put it together that things weren't so good between my mom and dad for a while. And then all of a sudden they had me 10 years later, 10 years after that. So I was born in '82, and then they had my younger brother. Now, when they had my younger brother, things started to get kind of weird at home. When my younger brother was born, my mother was in the hospital, and because my younger brother, my baby brother, had jaundice, and so my parents were there a lot. And my sister, my older sister, she was about, let's see, she was 14 years older than me used to. She was about 17, 18. Yeah, almost 18 when she was babysitting me. So I'm like three, and she's 17. So that just kind of gives you a picture. My older brother's 14, I think.

SPEAKER_03: 4:07

So it's quite an age gap between the series.

SPEAKER_01: 4:12

Yeah, yeah. Big age gap. Like they were my siblings, but it was more like by the time I was old enough to remember them, they were almost like other adults in the house, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 4:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

They had their own lives and they didn't play with toys and things like that like I did. So they had friends and social lives and cars and you know, stuff like that. So it was a little bit different. So I was usually kind of like on my own. I was very um okay with playing by myself. I had a good imagination, but um, I think I was too little to really realize how much I was really left alone because I was able to entertain myself.

SPEAKER_03: 4:49

And I had my Was there like an assumption with your parents that your your older siblings would be sort of looking out for you during this time?

SPEAKER_01: 4:56

Yeah, yeah. Um, it was kind of said that there were only certain times when my sister had to babysit me. It wasn't like all the time, but there was one instance where both my parents were at the hospital and my older brother was um he was at a friend's house or he was either maybe he was at the hospital with my parents, I'm not sure. But I know it was just my sister and I at home. And uh there was this one incident where my sister was supposed to give me dinner and then put me to bed. Um, and then after my parents left, it was like as soon as they left, she said, okay, it's time for bed. And I was like, Oh, it's, you know, I haven't had my dinner yet. And she's like, No, you're going, you're being a brat and you're going to bed. But it was funny because like I didn't remember being a brat. I didn't remember doing anything in the time from my when my parents left till the time, you know, she's telling me I I'm going to bed right away. Like, I don't I didn't remember doing anything.

SPEAKER_03: 5:51

So her reaction was kind of a surprise to you.

SPEAKER_01: 5:53

Yeah, it was a surprise to me, definitely. I wasn't prepared for that. And I was like, I thought she was just joking. I was like, no, it's like we have to have dinner first, like then I'll have my bath and I'll go to bed. You know, I'm trying to like negotiate and well, because you understood the routine, but she was deviating from it. Yeah, she was deviating from it. And so I was trying to put my foot down, you know, like no, like then I started getting sassy. Um, and uh I didn't say anything like mean or anything, but I was just like, no, it's like I want my dinner, like I'm hungry. And uh it was at that moment when um I said I was gonna tell mom and dad or something. Uh it was then when she the physical abuse with my sister started. I got a slap, strong slap to the face. And she takes me by my arm and drags me from the living room into the bathroom, and it happened really fast. Um, I just remember kind of being like put in the tub, like, and the tub was like empty still.

SPEAKER_03: 6:57

And um so you're just a little kid, you're trying to figure out like why you're not getting your supper, yeah. Why the routine's being violated, and now you're getting slapped around and thrown into an empty tub.

SPEAKER_01: 7:08

Well, yeah, at this point I'm not even thinking at my about my dinner now. I'm thinking, okay, that part's skipped, now it's bath time. Okay. And so I'm taking my bath, and I remember being in there like a really long time, like until the water was freezing cold. And I remember like I was too small to like reach the linens in the bathroom. Somebody always got, you know, what I needed down, like a towel or whatever I needed. And I always had my pajamas ready and stuff like that. Um, but this time, you know, none of that was done. And so I realized, like, oh, I can't reach anything. Like, and so I started yelling for my sister. I'm done, can I have a towel? You know, I'm like yelling, and uh sorry that was too loud. Um, but you know, like little, you can imagine like little three-year-old me just like, Shell, I'm done. I need a towel, you know, I'd like to get out of the bath, like, okay. I'm big, you know, basically, you know, succumbing to whatever my sister's mood is, and okay, like try not to piss her off anymore, like just you know, do what she says, and then I'll talk to mom and dad later. So, um, but she didn't come and I stayed there for like much longer, like to the point where my skin was irritated and I was getting tired. And uh so I just started to realize nobody was gonna come and get me. And so I got out of the tub and I drained the water like I was supposed to, made sure that you know all that stuff was done.

SPEAKER_03: 8:34

I couldn't even hold your end of the bargain.

SPEAKER_01: 8:36

I couldn't even reach the light switch to shut it off. Like that's how small I was. And so I leave the bathroom, I used whatever light I could see from the bathroom um to light my room. My room, our house was really tiny, um, and uh my room was kind of like an internal room. Like you had to walk through my room to get to another room, so it wasn't actually a bedroom, but it was a little kids' room. I didn't really care that people were walking through my room. I didn't need privacy at three years old, but um, it was a really small house. Uh, but so I opened my door and just or just to try to find something that I could wear. I I couldn't reach my pajamas or I couldn't see anything and I couldn't reach the light switch. So all I knew to do was I just crawled into bed and I wrapped myself up in my bed sheets, you know, and I'm like dripping wet and I'm cold. And I don't even remember like I think my my like my main blanket was being washed, and so it was just a sheet, and so I was like wrapped up in a wet sheet, and I was really cold, and I remember like it's Southern California, it's not that cold, but when you're little and you're three and you're wet and it's late night, it's cold enough. And I so I remember being uncomfortable, but I eventually fell asleep, and yeah, again, nobody came to check on me or to ask if I was okay, like nothing happened until my parents, you know, come home and somebody f flipped the light on, and I'm like, oh God, you know, like my my I I that's not often that happens where someone turns the light on in the middle of the night, and so it it woke me up and my mom is kind of upset and she's mad. And what's why does she have no clothes on and why is she wet? And um, and then I just kind of explained, you know, Sissy didn't take care of me. She mean she said I was a brat and she didn't, you know, she put me to bed without dinner, and I wasn't really like able to explain everything because I was like half asleep. And um, but I I remember her saying that she slapped me. Um, I don't know if I remember telling her exactly how or where, but um she was just kind of mad that you know I wasn't being taken care of like I was supposed to have been. And I remember my mom saying a thing or two to my sister, but beyond that, nothing really happened. Um but I didn't like it.

SPEAKER_03: 10:53

So your sister wasn't really taken to task for the abuse or the like neglect?

SPEAKER_01: 10:57

No, not really.

SPEAKER_03: 10:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 10:59

Um, as far as I know, there it wasn't because that abuse continued when I got older. Like she still, it wasn't a daily thing, but she still slapped me. She still burned me with curling irons and things like that. She did what she could to get away with like trying to hurt me. Uh, she pulled my hair when she was brushing my hair. She would just pull like extra, extra hard, you know, and then she would just say, Oh, you need to sit still, you know. But it was her tugging and pulling like out of anger. And um, I have some some scars from that, like being burned like on my neck and on my chin from the curling iron. This is the 80s, so it's like curling iron and hairspray and that was all part of everyday life. Yeah, yeah, it was. But you know, for a three-year-old getting burned with a curling iron, your sister yanking on your hair when you barely have any, it's it wasn't pleasant. It wasn't a pleasant part of my routine.

SPEAKER_03: 11:49

So, was your was your sister like your primary caregiver a lot of the time? It sounds like your parents weren't really there much.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

No, she wasn't, and that's why she wasn't, because she wasn't taking care of me, and my mom was more irritated at the fact that she was coming home and I was cold and wet and wasn't fed, and I was complaining. She didn't really care too much about the fact that I was slapped. She figured that was something that I needed.

SPEAKER_03: 12:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 12:13

So, yeah, that was the whole kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 12:16

So your mom was kind of okay with the abuse and just wasn't okay with the neglect and the inconvenience.

SPEAKER_01: 12:21

Well, back then, that's the thing. Like, they didn't call slapping in the face if you talked back abuse. Not in my family. That was you were talking back, you you need to be dangerous.

SPEAKER_03: 12:31

No, I mean that's how it was in my family too. That was just normal stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 12:34

Yeah. Um, now I can say that it was abuse because yeah. But um, but then it took me years to be able to really acknowledge that. Um it wasn't even until after like I spent years in counseling. It was like, it didn't come out until like I was in support group, I think, uh, saying that word abuse. I just had like practicing it because I knew I was abused and I was like trying to get comfortable with saying it. But um, yeah, she wasn't my primary caregiver, but she did babysit me sometimes. And and after a while, like they they had her stop because it was too much of a problem. And she also had her own car.

SPEAKER_03: 13:12

That was too much of a problem, sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 13:13

Um, too much of a problem was me complaining, I guess, that I didn't like how she was taking care of me. And my parents figured it was just because we were sisters and we didn't get along. That was always what my parents assumed. Um, they didn't assume that, you know, as soon as they were gonna leave, she was going to throw me in the tub and not give me dinner and slap me for saying so, you know, that I wanted my dinner, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 13:35

They thought this was just a case of incompatible siblings.

SPEAKER_01: 13:38

Yeah, yeah. That's really what they thought.

SPEAKER_03: 13:40

And, you know, but That must have been hard for a young girl to try to digest all of that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

God, yeah, it was because it just kept happening as I got older. Like, maybe she'd stop, she didn't babysit me anymore much after that. It was my older brother. But when it turns to my older brother, it's different. Um, my older brother was nothing like my sister. He was kind and he was gentle and he was always very accommodating of me. Like, he would buy me like a Barbie doll on my birthday, and he would make sure that like I had all these books um with cassette tapes that went with them to read to me because nobody read to me at home. My parents didn't read to me. Um, my sister didn't read to me. My brother, he could have read to me, but he's like, I don't like to read, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 14:29

Um, where where was he when this stuff was happening with your sister?

SPEAKER_01: 14:33

Um, he was usually gone. That was um when it was him and my sister at home, none of that stuff ever happened. It was only when I was alone with my sister.

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

All right.

SPEAKER_01: 14:42

Yeah, none nobody ever saw my sister hit me. Um, so that was another factor. They didn't believe me for a really long time because they never saw it happen.

SPEAKER_03: 14:53

So that in itself must have been its own bag of issues.

SPEAKER_01: 14:56

Oh yeah. And it was always like, is she gonna hit me? I, you know, I'm worried she's gonna hit me because if she hits me, nobody's gonna believe me. So I always had anxiety around my sister after that. Um, up until I stopped talking to her. Um, but backing up, uh, when it comes to my brother, it was different because he was kind and he was always playing games with me. And um, he made sure that uh, you know, that I was fed, and he wasn't the greatest cook, but he always used to make me sandwiches. And I remember like being in the kitchen, stopping my feet, cut the edges off, please cut the edges off. And he would be like, Okay, he would always tease me like he wasn't going to, you know, and then he would, and it always used to bother me. But it was like, you know, funny little stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03: 15:40

Well, he sounds like a good brother.

SPEAKER_01: 15:41

He he was he was he was the best. Um, there was there was some times when um uh everyone would be gone and he would be watching me, and my parents would be like, You can't have anyone over. And then they would leave, and I'd be like, remember, mom said you can't have anyone over. And then what did he do? He would invite like half the block over, and we would have a house full of kids break dancing breakdancing on the living room floor because we had hardwood floor and a huge master stereo, so it was like it was awesome. And I was like a three-year-old, like right in the middle of all that, and I had the greatest time, and there was never any like violence or drugs or anything like that. Like, really, people came over for a couple dances and then they went home and it was it was fun and it was fine, and nothing bad ever happened. And um, but still, like all the stuff that you know he was told not to do, he did, but I was still in a safer environment than I was with my sister. So when my brother would disobey my parents, I didn't really give a shit because I knew that I was okay and that I was safe and I liked my brother's friends at the time, and they were always really nice people, and I played with some of their younger siblings. So it was just kind of like, you know, kids in the neighborhood. Um, but yeah, he was always very accommodating to me and making sure that I had toys and that I had, you know, that I wasn't uh that I was comfortable and that I wasn't scared and that I wasn't hungry and all the things my sister didn't do for me. Are you enjoying When the Bow Breaks? If so, visit us on Facebook. Like and share. And uh, but as he got older, and then it was like me and my younger brother, but he was still little. My younger brother was hardly ever babysat by my older siblings. He was like hardly ever around because he was still like a nursing baby. So he was with my my mom still a lot. Um so I was still like being babysat by my by my brother.

SPEAKER_03: 17:47

So for for the most part, you were the youngest kid in my life at any given time. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 17:52

Yeah. Um, so it was like, yeah, two teenage siblings and then a little, tiny little kid. Um, and I was small too. Like I was small for even a three-year-old. Like I wore two T clothes until I was five because I just I didn't have I I always had health issues, and that's like another part that has to do more with my mom. But um, I had a lot of health issues and it kind of like stunned my growth and uh and affected like my body's like development and things like that in um like with my bones and my joints and my nerves and things like that. But um anyway, as my brother got older, he started spending more time with a particular friend around the corner. Um, spent more and more time there. He started coming back, coming home, you know, acting kind of funny. And, you know, like extra happy.

SPEAKER_03: 18:44

And as a young kid, you just didn't understand it.

SPEAKER_01: 18:48

Yeah. Yeah, I didn't understand it. But I didn't see it as a bad thing at the time. Um, and then my and then my brother, well, we we all got a little older. We moved from uh that house to a larger house because obviously we needed more space. And so we moved in with my grandparents and built an addition on their house. But while this was all being done, we were still kind of um in crammed sleeping quarters. Um, this is while the house was being built, but we'd already moved there. There was this particular night where my brother, um a couple years later, my brother had, you know, had other friends that he was going to visit, and he was staying there for longer periods of time and started to kind of, I don't know, seem like a rebellious teenager, I guess. He he didn't seem abnormal, but to me it seemed like he was different.

SPEAKER_03: 19:43

Like this is you from the young child perspective.

unknown: 19:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 19:47

I didn't know what was happening. I knew that he was changing, and I knew that something like had a hold on him that didn't have a hold on him before. This wasn't him coming home happy and giggling and goofy like he. Used to. This was him being upset all the time and anxious and nervous. So now when he was babysitting me, he was irritated that he had to do it.

SPEAKER_03: 20:08

Um you sort of lost the the fun, cool caregiver brother.

SPEAKER_01: 20:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was still trying to have fun. Like I remember this one time I was I was actually egging him on to have fun, like because he wasn't playing with me, and I was really mad. And I was like, why didn't you play with me? You know, and um, so I there was this like little bouncy ball, and he was like bouncing it on the wall, like playing dodgeball with me with it, and you know, just trying to hit me with that, he wouldn't have hurt me with it, but he was trying to bug me and I was trying to get him to play. So I was like, Yeah, he's playing with me, and he's just trying to hit me with this ball, like you know, his little sister. And um, and then all of a sudden, like I hear this crash and all this glass falls on me. Like, I'm okay, like I didn't get hurt, but the little tiny little bounce ball had broken like a brand new window in our brand new house, and you know, that was just being remodeled, and we knew that that was going to upset mom and dad, but at the same time, we both like started laughing and it was like freaking funny, and we're both like, oh shoot. So he grabs the broom and the dustpan and cleans it up, you know, and he doesn't blame me for it or anything. Um, so you know, stuff like that start to happen. My brother starts getting sloppy with taking care of me and starts to have like a bad attitude. He's still not watching me that often. It's usually like when my parents are going to church or like at a meeting or something, and my brothers, you my younger brother's usually with them. Um, so a little more time goes on, and uh at this point I'm like seven. Um, I'm seven years old, and we're in this house, and I have a room in the front house, but the door lock doesn't work good on it. It's like an old door. Um, there's a reason why I'm saying this. Um, my brother really started to get into drugs. By this time, I pretty much I know it's drugs. Like I don't know how to express that. I know that he's doing something because I I saw movies when I was a kid, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 22:01

Right. Um you know enough to know what drugs look like in a general state.

SPEAKER_01: 22:04

And I knew my brother enough to know that that wasn't who he was. And uh so this one particular night, um it the same thing kind of happened again, like what had happened with my sister. Um, my parents leave, and you know, I'm like, oh, it's dinner time, and he says, No, you're going to bed, you're being a brat. Almost the same exact words. And I'm thinking, no, no, no, no, not this again. Like, no, I'm not being a brat. Like, I need to have dinner and then I'll go to bed. Like, you know, why are why is this happening? And um, so I started arguing, I started getting really mad, and he sends me to my room and he tries to lock me in, but of course the door doesn't lock. And so, so he's like 17 at this point, or 18 at this point. He's an adult, he's 18. Um, he's pushing on the door. I'm trying to push back on it, and I'm like, you know, I'm doing my little sister thing. Like, I'm kind of we're kind of giggling, and there's a little bit of pushback and stuff, like we're not exactly fighting, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 23:07

So it's not entirely crappy.

SPEAKER_01: 23:09

Yeah, so we're pushing, you know, and then it I'm like kind of egging to model it all, like, you're gonna get tired, you can't hold it forever, you know, like you know, being kind of a pain in the ass, little sister.

SPEAKER_02: 23:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

But um but then when he opens the door, he grabs like a pencil box that I had in my room and he threw it against the wall. And pencils and shavings and shit just fly everywhere. And I was like, whoa, like I don't think I could have gotten hurt, but I mean it's possible. Um, and I'd never seen that kind of behavior from my brother before. So that kind of scared me.

SPEAKER_03: 23:46

So was it was this sort of a case of like you you perceived it as a bit of a game and then it turned kind of ugly all of a sudden?

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

Yeah, I guess. I guess so, because I wasn't used to my brother treating me that way. He had never done that stuff that my sister had done before. He was always a nice guy, and I only just started noticing that he started acting weird, and I'm like, why are you not playing with me? You know, like come on, you know, and so I didn't understand like his whole I didn't really understand why he was acting that way. I didn't really put the two together, really. I knew that something was going on, like I knew about the drugs, like, and I'll get into that too, because I know because I talk to those people, but anyway. Um, so I I try to get out again, he puts me back in, and and like there's more like pushing, and I'm like, you know, but this time I'm kind of getting upset. Oh, you know, like that's not okay, now I have to clean up this mess, and you know, well, he took this chair, it was like a small kid's like, but it was like a solid oak chair, and he threw the chair and it almost hit me. I don't think he I he didn't like aim it directly at me. I know he wasn't trying to do that, but he was definitely trying to scare me. And when he threw it against the wall, it broke, and that's when I just kind of stopped and I was like, okay, I don't want to try to make him angry anymore. So I stopped fighting back, I stopped talking back, I let him shut the door, and I just kind of sat there, and I don't know, for a while trying to kind of figure out what to do. I didn't know what to do, and I knew there was something wrong with my brother because he'd never been like, I don't know, violent like that. You can call that violence. I don't know, see, I still don't, you know, how viol, you know, how violent do you have to be to be considered violent?

SPEAKER_03: 25:33

I mean, you throw a chair at a kid and you're especially when you're you're you're talking about what was becoming your normal. I mean, it's it's hard to look back on that and label it as anything other than right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 25:44

So I'm sitting there and I I'm look I'm just starting to kind of like this is the first like real memories I have of this bedroom. I didn't even remember it before then. Now I like this is like my first memories of being in this room. Um, even though we'd lived there for a couple years before that. Uh my mom, she was kind of a messy house person. I don't, that's saying it lightly. Um back then it wasn't that bad, but my room wasn't very clean. I had a lot of my mom's like office things in there. So there was a telephone and there was a phone book, and I knew how to read. So I opened up the phone book and I, because I was thinking about this, I was like, something's wrong with my brother. I I can't contact my parents because you know, no cell phones, and I didn't know the number of where they were staying, and I knew that my brother wasn't going to let me call my parents where they were. So I just kind of stayed there and I was just like, I didn't want to call the police because I didn't think that it was anything that I had to call the police for. And I knew that my mom was already in the habit of um threatening that if we didn't keep the house clean that CPS would come and take the kids away, like me and my younger brother, because my older brother and older sister were already adults. So um, so that was already like being drilled into us um at this point. Uh so I was afraid to call the police, and I also didn't want anything happening to my brother. I didn't want my brother going to jail. You know, I just knew that he needed help, and I knew that this wasn't a good situation for me, and I was gonna tell my parents, you know, maybe you should get, you know, maybe you shouldn't like leave me with them anymore.

unknown: 27:22

You know.

SPEAKER_03: 27:22

Yeah, like you weren't looking for trouble, you were looking to stop the trouble.

SPEAKER_01: 27:25

But I was thinking seven years old. I didn't even know how to hardly process any of this. I was just trying to take the next step. Like, I need help. So I picked up the phone book and I, you know, I maybe I did a stupid thing, but I opened up the phone book and I called one person. It was somebody that I knew. I I every person I called were people that I knew. It was like people from church. I was like, oh, that's the next person you call is like someone you know at church that you trust, like a Sunday school teacher.

SPEAKER_03: 27:50

Well, you're doing what any kid would do. You're looking for a trusted grown up.

SPEAKER_01: 27:52

Yes, I was looking for a trusted grown-up. Exactly. And so, um, because my parents were unavailable and my caregiver was unavailable, obviously. And so I called my Sunday school teacher and it rings, it rings, it rings. The machine picks up, and so I left a message. And this is when I, you know, I had a lot of guilt about this for a very long time, about the way that I said it, um, because I didn't know how to say it. Uh, but I said, um, hi, teacher so-and-so, um, it's Lexi. I'm calling because my brother is beating me up and I don't know what to do. And so I said, you know, can you please call me or I'll see you in church tomorrow because it was like a Saturday. And so I hang up the phone and I was really nervous and upset. I waited a few minutes, I didn't get a call back, and so I called another another number and left the same message and another number. And I don't know how many I called, maybe like four or five, possibly six, seven. I really don't remember, but I remember I called quite a few people and left the same message, and nobody picked up. And I didn't realize at the time all those Sunday school teachers were at the Sunday school meeting with my parents. And so I eventually put myself to bed. I fell asleep again with no dinner. Um, I wasn't thrown in a bathroom.

SPEAKER_03: 29:21

You must have felt very helpless and overwhelmed through all this.

SPEAKER_01: 29:24

I just I was. I don't remember like labeling it that, but looking back, yeah, I was very overwhelmed. That's why like I went straight to bed. I just like slept. I didn't know what else to do. And as a child, that was not normal for me to like lay down and go to sleep. I was a very active kid. I did not take naps well, I did not go to sleep well.

SPEAKER_03: 29:44

But this particular-cause the kid likes to go to bed, so that must have been heavy.

SPEAKER_01: 29:47

It was very heavy, and also like I felt safe because I had a bunk bed and I was like on the top bed, and so I knew that like once I was in bed, like that's what everyone wanted. Everyone just wanted me to shut up and go to bed. That's what everyone wanted. So I was gonna shut up and I was gonna go to bed, and so I went to bed and the next morning comes and it's like it's Sunday, and I'm like kind of in a daze. I'm really tired. I'm being drug around the house, like getting ready, like you know, being pulled by my sister or my mom or whatever, my dress on, my hair done, my breakfast wolf down, which is probably like, you know, dry bowl of cereal or something. Um, you know, just whatever I could fit in that short amount of time that we were rushing to go to church. And so I really wasn't thinking about what had happened the night before. I was remembering it, but I I knew that it wasn't the time to talk about it, I guess, because we were in our morning, Sunday morning rush, and my mom was with the baby, and my dad was trying to get stuff in the car because we played music on Sundays for church, and my sister was doing my hair, and my older brother was helping my dad with stuff, you know, it just wasn't a time to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03: 30:53

Sunday mornings at a Christian household. I yeah, I know how that circus goes.

SPEAKER_01: 30:56

It's like bring your kids to work day almost, it's like that. Yeah, it's craziness on a Sunday morning, especially when you're like PKs, when you're like pastors' kids. Yeah, if you didn't know it, PK's. Yeah, I feel that. So we're we're getting ready for church, and I go and I'm I'm kind of like more in my Sunday morning mode, I think. Um I don't remember the car ride there. I'm sure like again, we didn't talk. There was always music playing in the car. So we listen to music on the way to church, and we get to church, and I walk in, and you know, I'm kind of expecting the normal, like, you know, like the normal church buzz, like the hum of everyone talking and saying hello and good morning, and um the piano, you know, getting ready to piano player getting ready to play, or um the pastors praying before, you know, the normal stuff, but um it was different. I walk into church and I walk into the main, you know, the sanctuary is what we called it. I walk in and there's only a couple people in there. It it almost seems kind of like dark. Like nobody's there.

SPEAKER_03: 32:06

Like like the like the mood is dark, you mean?

SPEAKER_01: 32:08

The mood was dark, and even it even felt like even all the lights weren't even on yet.

SPEAKER_03: 32:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

Like everyone was kind of late or something.

SPEAKER_03: 32:17

And uh because no one So it's not your normal, like lively, Sunday exciting kind of Yeah, the auditory the sanctuary was kind of empty.

SPEAKER_01: 32:25

There was just a few people at the back just walking in. Um, and I was saying hi to everyone when I was coming in, but when I came in, there wasn't really anyone in there. So I just kind of sat or stood at the back because I was waiting for my family to come in because I didn't know we were where we were sitting. So I was always, you know, I was waiting for my mom and my dad and my brother and my sister to come in. And um, so I stood there and I waited, and I remember, I don't know who it is, but I remember someone who was close to me. It was a male, a male figure, and it bugs me because like I don't know who the person is, and it bothers me that this person was there and I don't know who they are because I can't ask them like if they remember this. And it's like this bugs me. But um, there was a person there, and I don't remember who they are, but I um I know I knew them, and they were standing there, and then I had um other people started coming in, and you know, I'm trying to say hi, you know, hi sister so-and-so, or hi brother so-and-so, nice to see you. But nobody's really saying anything to me. Everybody's got this look on their face, and um all of a sudden I see my Sunday school teacher and everyone else I called kind of stand in a line, and they walk by me, and everybody points their finger at my face and says, How dare you make a call like that? Do you know that you could have gotten your brother in some serious trouble? And I wasn't really allowed to talk. I remember I think maybe I was probably too scared to talk, also, because I remember.

SPEAKER_03: 33:56

Well, I guess when you got this whole group of adults, they've already decided what you'd done wrong. I mean, what is there to say about it?

SPEAKER_01: 34:02

Exactly. Yeah, they had already decided that I had done something wrong. And of course, me being seven, I'm thinking, oh God, that was that was wrong, I guess. Shoot. That was bad.

SPEAKER_03: 34:12

So you were already second guessing yourself, and then these people just confirmed that you'd done the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01: 34:16

That I had done the wrong thing, exactly. And that I what I had done not only was the wrong thing, but it was a terrible thing, and um uh So it wasn't even a case of anybody acknowledging that hey, your brother kind of fucked up.

SPEAKER_03: 34:30

That's the thing, nobody even was a case of like you put him at risk.

SPEAKER_00: 34:34

Yeah. Nobody even bothered to ask, hey, are you okay? What happened? Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01: 34:44

At this point, well, I felt like I was totally scapegoated because it it didn't end there.

SPEAKER_03: 34:50

Um you're seven years old. I'm seven years old. So you're you're still basically a baby, and then these people that are supposed to be looking out for you, they seem like they're looking out for the person who was uh kind of like treating you like shit.

SPEAKER_01: 35:02

Well, that was the thing, and and some people are like, well, how did all those people just shake their fingers at you? It wasn't even it wasn't like they got the message and just chose not to believe me. What had happened was the reason why no one was in that sanctuary is because my mother had found out from someone that I'd made the calls. Like I guess people at church are like. Yeah, she um like whipped up a lie really quick and said, Oh, she was playing with the phone. The phone was left in her room, she was playing with it. And he was babysitting her and she was acting, you know, she was misbehaving, and he sent her to bed and she didn't like that, so she made calls. Uh, you know, or whatever. I don't know exactly because I wasn't there, but it was something like that's what it seemed like to me.

SPEAKER_03: 35:45

But I mean, as Christians, it doesn't really seem like they were really placing much value on the truth.

SPEAKER_01: 35:49

They didn't they weren't interested in asking me personally what happened. They didn't, you know, no yeah. So it really bothered me and it didn't stop there. When I went home, some big changes happened. I do my own laundry now. I cook my own food now, I take care of myself.

SPEAKER_03: 36:06

As a result of the the the phone calls you made?

SPEAKER_01: 36:09

Yeah, and I wasn't allowed to go anywhere. I wasn't and I definitely was not allowed to use the phone. So yeah, my mother was really, really angry with me. She was really, really mad at me.

SPEAKER_03: 36:20

Um It sounds like they kind of doubled down on the shittiness though, because on top of like not sticking up for you and not protecting you, now it sounds like they've sort of thrust you into uh a role of more like an adult should have had at seven years old.

SPEAKER_01: 36:33

And you know, I think a lot of that stemmed from my mother's anxiety. Um my mother has mental illness. She's been indirectly diagnosed because she won't go to counseling, but she has uh narcissistic personality disorder, but I know she has other like disorders too, probably like borderline personality. That's I don't know, that's what I've been told by like several therapists, not just not just one. Um so uh so yeah, I have to like, but I didn't know that about my mom then, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 37:02

I know but she was probably just mom at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 37:04

She was just mom and mom's really mad at me, I did the wrong thing, and you know, what I was doing, it wasn't a big deal. Yeah, I kind of want to know how to cook. So I can make grilled cheese, I think. So let's do that. Let's put grilled cheese and let's burn it 12 times before you get it right, you know, because it was cast iron pan and I didn't know anything about high, low. Nobody was supervising me either. I'm literally like in my yeah, I'm literally like in my underwear, like walking around feeding myself and doing my own laundry because people just stopped. And to top things off, if the phone answered, you know, I wasn't allowed to use the phone except when uh my mom would tell me to answer it. And whenever she would tell me to answer it, it would always be the same person. Um God, I want to say his name, but I don't want to say his name because he's a fucking prick. Um and his name was Chris, I'm gonna say Chris. His name was Chris.

SPEAKER_02: 38:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 38:08

Uh he used to call for my brother, and uh he used to ask for my brother, and I would say, Hey, so-and-so's, you know, Chris is on the phone. Okay, I'll be there in a minute, you know. And so I'm seven now, my brother's eighteen, he's spending a lot of time in his room, um, and then going to his friend's house and then coming back and spending more time in his room, sleeping, loud music, just like these weird cycles of abnormality. And so I answer this phone, and it's this guy, Chris, and he wants to talk to my brother. He's always calling to talk to my brother. And uh, but while I he's waiting for my brother to come to come to the phone, I'm supposed to stay on the phone and entertain him, I guess.

SPEAKER_03: 38:49

So I So you're like the hold music, essentially.

SPEAKER_01: 38:52

Yeah. So I'm on the phone, and you know, there's no hold button or anything, and you don't want to leave the phone sitting there because the baby could get it, or you know, it could fall, or you know, just hold on to the phone and don't leave the person just hanging there. So I'm sitting there on the phone. I'm like sitting on the counter in the kitchen, and it's like messy, and there's dishes everywhere, and it's smelly and scross. And I'm sitting there and I'm talking to this guy, and he's asking me questions like, Hey, how are you? Good. What are you doing today? Nothing. Uh so how old are you now? I'm seven. Well, when you get 18, why don't you give me a call? And you know, it was like things like that. But the more the conversations went on, it was like, so when are you gonna be 18? Like was more personal. Like, hey, what are you doing today? So did you play with your friend or did you do this? Or and you started asking me more personal questions, and I didn't know.

SPEAKER_03: 39:52

So did you sort of get what he was driving at at that evening?

SPEAKER_01: 39:54

I didn't get what he was driving at, but he definitely creeped me out, he definitely made me uncomfortable, and I definitely knew that he shouldn't. Not be talking to me that way. I was I knew that I was a child and I knew that nobody had business talking to me that way. And I used to tell my mom, I don't like talking to him. He says stupid things to me. He asks me when I can go on a date with him. And she would say things like, Oh, he's just teasing. You know. Um, and she'd, you know, blow it off.

SPEAKER_03: 40:18

But he did that too, but anybody ever assumed that you were in harm's way?

SPEAKER_01: 40:23

They did everything they could to tell me that I was fine.

SPEAKER_03: 40:30

It sounds like a recurring theme of you being put in bad positions and the people that are supposed to care for you just sort of brushing it off as you being, yeah, I don't know, like a a liar or troublemaker or a nuisance.

SPEAKER_01: 40:42

I have a lifetime of situations like that where I was like purposefully placed in situations that made me vulnerable. Um, and looking back, I'm like, why would they ever even think of doing that? Like, I went to modeling school in the 90s for um for acting classes, but the modeling school had acting classes, so I was going, but I had to take a bus uh to Los Angeles by myself on Saturdays to go to this class, and I was walking around downtown LA by myself with adults. I was in an adult class because I was too advanced for the kids' class or whatever they said because of my acting, because I already had a lot of.

SPEAKER_03: 41:22

So when you say with adults, you don't mean you were with adult chaperones. You mean you were just in the company of other adults.

SPEAKER_01: 41:27

Yes, I was in the company of other adults, male and female.

SPEAKER_03: 41:30

And LA seems like kind of a busy city for a young girl to be trying to navigate on her own.

SPEAKER_01: 41:37

I didn't know where the hell I was going. Like when we left the building, when we left the building for from class to go to lunch, I had to go find like McDonald's or a restaurant or a store nearby where I could buy my meals. It took me a while to get to know, you know, those streets or whatever. But um, yeah, I was wandering walking around downtown Los Angeles at 11 years old by myself um with other adults. And sometimes these adults would take me out to lunch with them and they would buy my meals and stuff, and they were always really great. Nothing bad or inappropriate ever happened. But think about how easy that could have been, though. And like I was on the bus for hours.

SPEAKER_03: 42:15

I I get that you are in danger. I mean, I think anybody listening to this is already like their skin's probably crawling a little bit because we're all thinking about either our own kids or like kids that we know and like trying to imagine them in these environments, and it just it seems so impossible.

SPEAKER_01: 42:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:31

But what what I'm more curious about is like you in the middle of the situation. Because I mean, like the creepy factor and the irresponsible factor, these are obvious things.

SPEAKER_02: 42:40

Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03: 42:41

But what's going on in your head at at this time? So here you are in the company of these adults, you're used to the grown-ups in your lives being kind of shitty people, and now suddenly you're in the company of grown-ups that are kind of looking out for you, they're making sure that you're fed, you're entertained, and whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 42:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:58

Like, what's going through your mind when you're experiencing all this?

SPEAKER_01: 43:01

Well, when I was with them, like I did have anxiety. I'm like, are they gonna be nice to me? You know? And so I would sit with them and they would, yeah, they would they would buy my meals and they would tell me I didn't have to pay sometimes, you know, like sometimes like, oh, let her pay for her own meal, you know. Like, if she has money, like let her do it, you know. But but you know, sometimes it was like pizza or something, and you know, that was kind of expensive for a little kid. So, you know, they'd buy me a whole pizza by myself, and it was nice. They they were nice to me. Like they made sure that you know, they weren't trying to babysit me, but you know, they were there kind of keeping an eye on me, make you know, making sure, you know, we would hang out or whatever. I was another student, so they're just like, hey, come on, have lunch of us. So it was more like that, but um, it was still like I was still vulnerable and I was still I was scared.

SPEAKER_03: 43:47

And you know, but I So the anxiety you're feeling is that just about like the things that like a normal I hate to say normal, but what just like your common person would expect to cause the anxiety, you know, like oh, this is an inappropriate situation, or I'm not taken care of, or is this like tied more into like your experience with your with your older brother?

SPEAKER_01: 44:06

I think I was just at this point, um, when I well, when I started going to modeling class or whatever, I was 11, so I was already used to being on my own at that point. So um, yeah. So it was like kind of like this whole chain of events thing where my parents just they spent less and less time with me, but they spent more money getting me out of the house. So it was like, oh, take her to drama class or take her to this or take her there. Um, they didn't like having me around because when I was around, I was usually talking about what I didn't like at home.

SPEAKER_03: 44:38

So this wasn't a case of them trying to give you the best experiences. This is just a way to make you kind of like fuck off and get out of the way.

SPEAKER_01: 44:45

Well, the modeling school was my idea, the ice skating classes were my idea, all of that was my idea. When it looked like my parents were being supportive, what they were really doing was just trying to get rid of me. They didn't like spending time with me. Uh we didn't have like dinner time at the table, we didn't have family time like that. Like I rarely I only sat with my family to eat if we would go out or we if we were at some other family's house.

SPEAKER_03: 45:09

Was that kind of like an image thing, do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 45:11

Uh yeah. Oh yeah. It became more evident as I was an adult because it was then it was like my mom changed what she was, you know. She did the same stuff, she just, you know, it was different uh circumstances that she would use to, you know, gain public sympathy or attention um from what I was doing. Um so yeah, so it was like they were taking me here because they didn't want to spend time with me, and then I was doing all these things and accomplishing all these things, and they were getting attention for it. And so then we'd go to church or we would go to my uh my uh runway shows or my acting things, you know, and my mom would talk me up. My parents would, oh, she's so she's such a great kid, and and and all that, but people don't know that like when we got in the car, the yelling would start and the belittling. And so now, you know, it's not just my sister, it's not just like my brother, it's it's my parents too. And so I don't feel like I really this is my normal family, so I'm stop I'm starting to um not think about externally asking for anyone's help anymore. Because I feel like that this is how my this is my life.

SPEAKER_03: 46:36

Interested in being a guest on the show? Send us an email, wtbb podcast at gmail.com. Thank you for listening to When the Bell Breaks. Before we go too far, yeah, because I know it's really easy to like get lost in you know moving forward in your story, but there's a couple things that have sort of jumped out at me while you were talking. And I think like the first thing I kind of like to go back to I I think sort of ties into what you're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_02: 47:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 47:15

And I wouldn't mind exploring your church life just a little bit because um from what you've been saying about your your mom, especially, I haven't heard much about your dad yet.

SPEAKER_02: 47:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 47:27

I do want I do want to get into that. But your mom seems like she's a very uh image-oriented person. She also seems like um she's kind of disconnected on a like moral and ethical level from what I would expect to see in somebody who values you know kind of Christian fundamental beliefs.

SPEAKER_00: 47:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:46

Like what what are you seeing like as a child observing your parents in the church? And also I know I'm gonna like just overload you with question here, but you talk a lot, so I want to give you a chance to just run so I can shut up. Um the the other part of it is you know, like you're you're talking about how you're observing your family life as being kind of just like normal family life, but you must have had some chance to observe other families while interacting in church functions and whatnot.

SPEAKER_01: 48:14

Well, that's the funny thing, AC, because um whenever I did spend time with other families, it was usually families that my parents approved of. And it was usually families that were worse off than we were, so that we would always look better and they would always look worse to me.

SPEAKER_03: 48:31

Okay, so even in social situations, like everything was stacked to make your mother's image sort of um maintain itself.

SPEAKER_01: 48:38

Well, there were families that I did spend time with that my mother had nothing to do with. So I did have a chance to get to know nice families. So I and I did see, you know, structured families where they had, you know, loving relationships and a tidy house.

SPEAKER_03: 48:56

And does that seem kind of weird to you?

SPEAKER_01: 48:59

Um I always not weird. I appreciated it and I liked it and I hated going home.

SPEAKER_03: 49:08

So you could actually see though and recognize that that was kind of the way the things were more supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01: 49:15

Yes, but at the same time, I also had my mother uh feeding me stories when I would go home about the people that I was with. So I was also getting like conflicting information from my mother, but then I was going there and having good experiences.

SPEAKER_03: 49:29

Everything's not as it seems kind of approach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:31

Well, sh my mom was always trying to say, oh, there's something wrong with them. And she would always try to uh claim that she could pinpoint what was wrong. Okay. Um, things like that. When in reality there really wasn't anything wrong, it was just her being delusional and trying to muddle my opinion of the family that I was spending time with.

SPEAKER_03: 49:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:59

So like what about like the it sounds like there's a lot of hypocrisy going on.

SPEAKER_01: 50:04

Yeah, because when it comes to the religious thing, we were taught one thing, but then we were seeing another thing represented or displayed, or um, you know, we were not seeing the examples that you would think would come from a Christian home. Right. We were told to love and forgive, but no one ever modeled that to us. Uh it took me years before I even learned how to apologize to people properly because no one had ever apologized to me for anything. And I wasn't ever, I was I was only ever made to apologize, like forced to apologize.

SPEAKER_03: 50:49

But kids learn best through example, so that must have been kind of tough.

SPEAKER_01: 50:52

It was tough. And then it was like, okay, I'm not being told what to do, or I'm not being shown what to do, but I'm being told what to do. So I was always trying to just do what I was told so that I wouldn't get in trouble. Because if I got in trouble, then it was like you get a Christian spanking. You know, um, yeah, that happened very frequently with me because if y'all can't tell, um, I talk and my family didn't like that. So it was whenever they were doing something wrong or um something that was bothering me that I was trying to express or trying to share my feelings, I was always being told to feel or be made to feel like I was in the wrong or I shouldn't feel that way, or you know, so it was it was really difficult, it was really confusing to grow up in a family like that. And uh it was hard. I was trying to break away from that, but I didn't know how. And at the same time, I was really scared because my mom had always like built up this fear in me of other people, and so I grew to be, especially during high school, I was very, very quiet and introverted. I stopped kind of like standing up for myself because um it wasn't effective for like a decade. And so um I just became very like closed off and uh not really open. And I started to play music because I thought maybe I could communicate something, but I thought that was a way I could be very vague about it. So a lot of my songs were kind of meant to be like Christian songs, but they weren't really about that um at all.

SPEAKER_03: 52:37

That's always been the nice thing with Christian music, though, is you can hide so much behind like presumably Jesus-y lyric, right?

SPEAKER_01: 52:44

Yeah, you can, you can. And I mean, I used to be a worship leader. I'll say that right now. I used to be a worship leader. Um, and I know all about it, the ins and the outs uh of what it's like. That's one of the hardest positions in church. I'm gonna say that it's tough because it's a creative job, it's very personal. Uh anyway, I just wanted to say, yeah, um, tip my hat, stall you worship leaders. I know how it's tough it is if you're listening. But um anyway, I don't do that anymore. But um, yeah, so my home environment wasn't good. I saw glimmers of, you know, niceness from other families, but I, you know, and I spent time with those people, and I was even invited on vacations with them, and um, because I was always so well behaved, and because I never talked back, and because I never caused any problems, because I was always afraid of getting in trouble.

SPEAKER_03: 53:31

I'm thinking, God, if my family keep my head down and shut up.

SPEAKER_01: 53:36

Like, wherever I was at, I learned the rules real quick. Like, I freaking learned the rules of the house there because I did not want to get in trouble at anybody else's house. And with whatever my mom was saying, they're this or they're that, you know, I was like, oh god, what what are they gonna do to me if I get in trouble, you know? And there was this one guy, he's like, You gotta call me sir. And I was like, ooh, okay. So then I was like, okay, and I gotta stay here for a week now because my parents write it down. So, you know, I knew I wanted better, and I knew that I didn't want to be like that when I grew up. And when I was 17, I was basically like counting down the minutes to when I could leave because I knew I wasn't loved at home, and I knew I wasn't being heard at home, especially, and I knew that all of my words and my the things that I have expressed were twisted around by my mom and my sister. Uh, and my brother had a drug problem now, drinking problem, you know, things would go disappearing. Um, I was 13, I started working for myself because um my mom wasn't buying my things. Um, she was buying, she was paying for my brother's things when he was on drugs, but she wouldn't buy my things, so I had to go and get a job and do homeschool because I was homeschooled. So I was homeschooling and working, babysitting. Um and then I would have to come home and after all of that babysitting, I would have to give some of my money or all of it to my brother so that he could go get gas. Um he'd go around the corner and then come home.

SPEAKER_03: 55:13

They started off kind of shitty, and it sounds like this kept getting worse.

SPEAKER_01: 55:16

It kept getting worse. Yes, it did. At this point, my sister was married and out of the house, but um, yeah, it was worse. My brother's drug problem was worse. He was uh rarely working. Um, he was having a lot of problems, he was having a lot of breakdowns. I remember there were nights when he was just crying and screaming, and my mom was trying to talk to him, but she was basically feeding him bullshit, and I would be like, Why can't he go to counseling? And my mother would say things like counselors are crazier than the people they try to help. And that was exactly what she said to me when I was 15 after I tried to commit suicide, and my mom found out about it. Um I don't want to go too much into that. Uh I don't like going into the details about that because I don't, you know, I don't want to be able to do that. Well, it's enough that you were there. I get it. Yeah, yeah. So uh it was like three times, and she told me I when I begged her to go to counseling because she wanted to know why. I begged her to go to counseling and I said I'm having emotional problems and I'm overwhelmed and I need some support. Can we go? Can we can you please take me to counseling? I'm like bawling, I'm not even like just talking to her. I'm like, I'm bawling my eyes out. I'm like begging, I'm on my knees. I'm saying, can you please take me to counseling? Um and no, that wasn't going to be that wasn't gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03: 56:37

It kind of feels like your your mom had a problem with counselors because she didn't want to look her own mental illness in the eye.

SPEAKER_01: 56:43

Yeah, that was exactly what was wrong because as I got older, it was like, yeah, the counseling thing was always shut down. Um so so I'm 17, I'm getting ready to like I I decided to live at that point because it seemed like my mom like just wanted me dead at that point. Like she didn't give a shit what happened to me, really.

SPEAKER_02: 57:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 57:02

All those instances, like it would take forever, but there's so many instances where my parents just kind of left me somewhere, like, or in danger somewhere, and I was so sick of that. And so I just I wanted to leave, and so I turned 17, and what do I do? Stupid. I I move in with my sister because I'm thinking my sister's an adult now, she's married, she has a kid, she's not gonna treat me the way she used to when she was a teenager.

SPEAKER_03: 57:24

Yeah, that's childhood stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:26

Yeah, that's kid stuff. We were just kids. I'm gonna be 18 soon, and I can do my own thing, but I can stay with my sister because she my sister actually asked me. She said because she had an acting or an uh assistant directing job for me to do that had to do with the children's place. So I went up there to help assist and do that. I also played the main um adult role also in in uh the production, so it was a lot of work, and I was thinking, oh, I'll just stay there and then I was gonna go back home because I'm thinking I was just gonna have a break from my family. But I I I really wanted to stay, and so I stayed, but it wasn't a bad situation, it wasn't a good situation. My sister, she wasn't slapping me or anything, but she was definitely financially abusing me and she was definitely keeping me from leaving the house. She was definitely like uh taking money from my mom and not giving it to me, you know, that money that was supposed to be for me. So again, I was without deodorant and things like that. And then I was like, okay, now I gotta get a job again because um, you know, no one's taking care of me. Um, but even then I wasn't allowed to do that. So uh went to another relative, she told me how to use the bus schedule and help me get a bank account and all these things and got me set up as an adult, basically. I moved in with a family in my church. Um, I rented a room from them and I stayed there for a year and a half, and I worked retail for a year and a half plus church work for free. So I worked my ass off like all the time. Um, I didn't want to go home. I was just glad to kind of be out on my own and doing my own thing and not having too much criticism. And uh, but I had a lot of anxiety still. Um, I fast forward, there's uh uh having to do with my estrangement. Fast forward, I'm married with four kids, and but I'm still kind of like stuck in the oh, my family they love me somehow, I love them, it's gonna get better. We just need to talk, or I need to ex- they're not really hearing me. I'm not explaining it in a way they can understand. You know, I I'm always trying at this point, I'm always trying to like improve my relationship with my family because it never seems to get better, it always seems to get worse.

SPEAKER_03: 59:38

And um you're explaining in a way that who can understand?

SPEAKER_01: 59:42

Yeah, my parents.

SPEAKER_03: 59:43

I was trying because they weren't like you're talking about being married and having kids and talking about family. I'm just oh I want to be clear which family we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 59:51

Okay. I was married, had kids, and I was trying to explain my feelings about how you know, about all the that stuff that happened to me as a kid. I was trying to talk about that to my parents, but they were never receptive about it. And it oh, it never happened. Or they still didn't believe that my sister slapped me. You know, so they couldn't even go there. And it's like, even when I tried talking, it's like they couldn't even hear me. Like, it wasn't, they they didn't get it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:19

Like they wouldn't even just throw you the bone of validating your experience.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:23

Yeah, not even. They would not even do that. And so again, like more depression just kind of sank in. And I got deeper and deeper into depression. And it was so terrible. I could, I didn't know what was wrong with me. I kept thinking there was something wrong with me. Why do people hate why do they hate me? And oh, it's because of that one time. And it's like, but then no, as I was an adult, I went to counseling finally because I didn't ask my mommy this time. I went on my own. And when I went on my own, I started opening up about all this shit. And then when I started talking about it, I realized that my parents were freaking neglectful and abusive. And so was my sister. And my brother had problems and they didn't do anything. And so all of this stuff just came out. And then it was like, well, now what am I gonna do? And and then my counselor and this other counselor and this other counselor were like, oh, narcissistic personality disorder sounds like what your mother has and what your sister has, and and uh possibly some other things, and possibly some schizophrenia from your brother and bipolar from your father, and that's what it sounds like. And and I'm like, Well, what the heck does this mean that I can't, I mean, that I can't even solve any of these issues now because there's no hope? And then he said, Well, they need to go to counseling. And I said, That's the problem. I said they would never go, and they spoke against it, and they hated uh all my friends who were studying psychology, and uh they just they couldn't stand it. And I was like, if I could get my mother into this room, she'd probably just divert everything, she'd probably it would it would be word salad is what we call it. Like she'd twist everything around. It would be like ineffective. I think I and then he's like, okay, so what do you want to accomplish here in counseling? And I said, Well, I need to do what's right for myself. And just after a while, the conclusion came to I can't be around them anymore. They won't stop, they don't respect my boundaries, they don't listen when I say, Hey, I don't like talking about blowing people up and conspiracy theories at the table when my children are there. Hey, I don't like my sister coming around my kids because she's starting to do the same thing with my kids as she was to me. I don't want her around. They didn't respect those things. And um, so I'm a heated parent at this point. Uh, this starts to become all about my kids. I'm not even thinking about my own feelings. I was just mad because they weren't listening. Again, they weren't listening. And so I heavily debated cutting it off with them for a year because I wanted to give them opportunities to hear me. I wanted to give them opportunities to talk to me and to um honor my requests regarding my kids and regarding my own personal boundaries, and uh they just weren't doing that at all. And in fact, you know, they were they were going and they were they were stealing things from my home and you know, things like that. And uh it just it was getting worse and worse and worse. And I just had to stop. I really was going crazy, and I had to stop. And um, the day came when I was recovering from a surgery and my parents were babysitting, and I was really uncomfortable with them babysitting, but it was a long, it was like for a few days I was in a lot of pain. Um, and so they were watching them, and I was always calling to check up on them and stuff. But there was this one day where my mom called me, and so I picked up the phone and I expected to hear one of my kids or something, or I expected to hear her ask me a question about the kids. But when I picked it up, she didn't answer. I just hear this muffling noise, and then I hear my sister's voice. Now, my sister, she was like my main abuser growing up, really. Um she abused me verbally, emotionally, financially. Uh she did a lot of what they call psychological molestation um with me and my younger brother and my niece, um things like that. So I at this point I was already estranged for my sister. I was already not talking to her, and I already told my parents don't let them around, don't let her around my kids. Um, but I heard my sister's voice on the phone, and so I freaked out, flipped out. I had to wait a while because I had had some pain medication um from my surgery. And so I remember drinking lots of water. I remember calling uh, I remember calling my spouse, and I remember calling my friend, and I remember calling my counselor, and I was like, what do I do? Like this was like the last straw. Like I gave them chance after chance and they're not doing it, and I can't do this anymore. And and it was already like a decision that I had already made. I was just waiting for them to screw it up, I guess. So I texted my mom and I said, I'm coming to get the kids, make sure they're ready. And that's all I said. So I got myself together, I drove down there to pick up my kids. Uh I was upset. I was doing everything I could to stay calm, and when I got there, I just remember my parents smiling and laughing. My sister wasn't there, of course. She'd already left because I texted that I was coming because I really didn't want my sister there. I was worried that there was going to be some sort of confrontation if she was there. So I wanted her out of there. Because I wanted her away from the kids.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:42

So their sort of like jovial attitude. Was that um why was that surprising to you? Like, was it abnormal for you to have called and said, look, like make sure the kids are ready?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:54

Yeah. Because because I had already set it up to where they were gonna stay for like a couple more days.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:01

Um this was cutting the visit short.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:04

Yeah, they were there for because my surgery was like in the summer, and it was they had the surgery ended up being more invasive than it was supposed to be. And so it was I was in a lot more pain than expected, and so my recovery time was um lengthened. And so I needed like a good week because I was on I was on heavy painkillers for like a week straight because it was I was in so much pain and I couldn't take care of my kids. So um that you know what the next best thing, go to grandma and grandpa's, you know. So they're there, and you know, so I go and pick them up, and when I get there, um she's my sister's not there. Uh my parents are laughing, smiling, talking, being really, really chatty with me. Um, because it was out of character for me to say, I'm coming and getting the kids, make sure they're ready.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:52

And what about them? Were they sort of acting out of character?

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:54

They were acting out of character. I mean, my mom was always, you know, they were like, they knew they fucked up. They I'm pretty sure they did. They were like, Okay, yeah, they were trying to cover it up. They didn't think I knew. So I get my kids in the car, I get their stuff in the car. My mom said something about, oh, see you in a couple days for this thing, this church thing that she invited me to that I already told her I wasn't going to because we already had plans. And um I just remember, yeah, yeah. I remember walking out the door and I remember my dad trying to hug me, which is odd because my dad never hugged me growing up. And every hug after that felt very awkward. He tried to hug me, and this time I actually pushed him away. Like, not shoved him or anything, but like I was like, no.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:37

Yeah, it's just like this hug is over now.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:39

Yeah, I'm not doing this. I'm not hugging you right now. I'm not in a huggy mood. Like I wanted to just say that, but instead I just kind of like pushed and I backed away, and he acted like it was like no big deal, and I get in the car and um I say, I just wait, you know, I'd like bye, fine, bye. And I shut the door. And so I turn around, I turn the corner, and my kids are in the car, and I asked them, I said, was Aunt B there? And they said, Yeah. She comes over all the time, mom, and she know, and I know she's not supposed to be there. She hides in the office when you come drop us off, and then she comes out when you're done. She parks her car around the corner. I said, Why didn't you tell me before? She's like, Well, I just knew today that I knew for sure she wasn't supposed to be there because I heard grandma saying that you texted and that she had to leave before you got there. So my oldest already knew that my sister wasn't, my kids were very uncomfortable with her at this point because she'd already abused them in a couple different ways. Um, my sister had already slapped my son at this point. My sister had already neglected my kids because my mom was taking my kids over to her house unknowingly. I had no idea she was doing this. She was taking my children over for my sister to watch, and my sister was neglecting them. And I didn't know that this was happening because it took a long time for my kids to be able to say this. And they were using my two younger children who weren't really of talking age yet, or of that processing age. Uh there were like times when I picked up my son and um none of the diapers were used in the diaper bag. It was just he was left in his diaper all day.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:18

Um just more neg more neglect, more shittiness, just like what you'd go on.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:22

Yeah, and it was like, and it was like, okay, so I was keeping them, you know, away from my parents, you know, more it was like I only used them in emergency situations, like with the stink and surgery. I couldn't afford a babysitter for a week, and I was really hoping that everything was gonna be okay. And I was, I was already planning to, we were planning on moving, and I was like, okay, when we move, I just I won't talk to them anymore, I won't see them anymore, it'll be okay. Um, but it wasn't going to be like that. I knew that I had to cut it off completely, um, especially for my kids' sake. So I did that, and uh, that was the last day I talked to them um personally. Uh I sent them a letter via mail and email uh explaining my estrangement and the reasons why, because I wanted it in writing. If they were gonna interrupt they couldn't interrupt my letter, um they were either gonna read it or they won't, or they or they wouldn't. Uh so I gave them a letter and I was like, I can't do this anymore. You um if there is ever a chance for you to reconnect with me, it will have to be after you've had significant time in counseling. Because I won't talk to you otherwise. And I said, Don't don't call me, don't text me or anything like that. I did give them permission to like contact my husband because for emergencies they were older and they didn't have, you know, my my other siblings didn't do shit for them. So that line of communication.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:58

You wanted to make sure that your parents were still taking care of.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:00

Yes, I wanted to make sure my parents were still taken care of. Because at this point I didn't think it was gonna be like a forever thing. Um I just thought it was gonna be temporary that, oh, this will jog their memory, maybe, or maybe this will get their attention, maybe when I finally stop m stop talking like they asked, maybe when I finally shut up, and maybe when I'm finally gone and I'm not in the picture, or maybe my sister won't hate me so much, and maybe my mother won't be like that to me. So so I strange myself, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:33

I'm gonna put you on pause.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:36

You're getting emotional and you're speeding up, so I think we'll take a break for tonight, and we can get back to this next time, okay?