3 Weddings And A Funeral

Are 3 weddings and a funeral too much for one family? Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a narcissistic parent? Can the family be mended in time before Curtis makes Becca his wife? Guest Curtis Blackthorne makes an urgent and time-sensitive call to the show.

https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:04

Neither of us were home, and the only reason we know that they came by was they left a gift on the front porch like it was my birthday. And during therapy a couple times, it was like, well, that won't happen. It's like, but it did. Well, it won't happen again. How can you promise me that? Well, it just won't, because I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_05: 0:20

There's a difference between forgiving someone and tolerating ongoing bad behavior.

SPEAKER_03: 0:29

Rebecca will be my wife in two days. And she is now my family, and you guys become extended family.

SPEAKER_05: 0:38

Are they gonna be allowed to see my kids anymore? Or am I ever going to be able to get in a room with them and talk to them? What's gonna happen when someone passes away? These are things that I had to think about.

SPEAKER_03: 0:51

To fill into like say, hey, I'd like to speak on this. She's like, you know, there's a form that you can sign up and and go on the podcast. And I was like, What? Maybe I should do this. Just because uh as you'll find out as we go through this, uh, we're dealing with a narcissistic parent. So she has been doing a lot of research and going, Hey, you should read this, you should listen to this, you should go there. Yeah. And then she saw about the hey, would you like to be on the podcast? And I was like, I would actually. And hopefully I sound okay.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18

Yes, you sound great. Actually, I was gonna say you sound good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21

Oh, yeah. I fully expect at some point, like while we're very serious and like super focused, that my dogs are gonna come barking at something, and then I'd be like, hey, get out of here.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30

Because yeah, it's it's real and it's it's fun.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33

We'll we'll keep them in the show. We can change their names to protect their privacy if you want.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39

Perfect.

SPEAKER_05: 1:40

Well, first of all, I'm gonna say uh hello, and I'm going to ask you, um, why are you calling me? I mean, you you're you're dealing with this estrangement thing, and you chose to call a total stranger, you know, on the show when the bow breaks. What made you think of really wanting to do that?

SPEAKER_03: 2:00

Honestly, it's one of those things as I was listening to it, you know, you had that the time there you had two or three uh episodes out, and everybody kind of had has been either estranged for a while or had very kind of clear, clear evidence of like, oh yeah, like that's abuse, and you should get away from that. And I kind of feel like I can see it coming on the horizon, and I'm hearing a lot of the similar stuff about kind of where you're just kind of taken for granted and you're treated kind of terribly, and the second you treat someone else this the way they've been treating you, all of a sudden you're vilified by everybody. And so it's one of those things where like I I feel like we're right on the cusp of getting to the point where it's you know what, that that's it. I I can't do this anymore. And one of the things that I've even tried to set a boundary with my parents of was hey, you know, I'm getting married soon, kids are probably around the corner. Like, if you want to have anything to do with grandchildren, we need to have discussions about your guys' actions. And even that threat, I and I don't like using the word threat, but like it's a firmer boundary. Even that, they're kind of like, Yeah, you're not gonna do that. And I'm just like, you Yeah, it's always a challenge.

SPEAKER_05: 3:22

Um, I have I don't want to, you know, talk too much about myself or my situation, but I had a narcissist narcissistic parent also, and I know what it's like being it, it's constantly frustrating. They know how to like spin things around where you can't even stay in it, can't there the conversation doesn't even go straight ever.

SPEAKER_03: 3:40

Oh yeah. Have you noticed it? Oh yeah, so so I mean, depending on where we want to go with the story, I have lots of evidence of of all of this happening.

SPEAKER_05: 3:48

So you tell it the way you want, but yeah, I get what you mean about being frustrated and hate, like, and then turning it like, wait a minute, that's don't change the subject.

SPEAKER_03: 3:55

Right. Uh so like currently I'm you know uh I'm still have contact with my family through text messages, and I see my I see my brothers every now and again. I have two brothers, and I see my mom in person only with a therapist. And even with the therapist, we've had to go through two. I picked one, it was my therapist that I've been seeing for a few years now, and I and I was like, you can find someone that neither of us know. If there's somebody you trust, you can go that way. But I have a guy I already I see and trust. We can go to him so that way neither of us really have to look if that's okay with you. And so we would start, we started going to therapy there. And he even told me up front, he's like, I'm gonna be harder on you in the beginning because I want to make sure she trusts me. And he's like, I might start challenging her after a few kind of sessions to see how she reacts and and hopefully she'll trust me enough to change or at least try to like listen to me. But even then in those sessions, yeah, as soon as you kind of it's a it's her tactic that like as soon as you start talking about something where she could even look in a bad light, it will be a quick subject change. Yeah, but what about this thing?

SPEAKER_02: 5:08

Yeah, but what about this thing?

SPEAKER_03: 5:09

And I'm just like, Yeah, we we can cover that thing, but how about we just stick to one topic? Like, can we get to the bottom of one topic?

SPEAKER_05: 5:19

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

You keep piling this stuff up on top of it, we we can't solve anything.

SPEAKER_05: 5:24

So, really quick, before we go on a little bit more, I haven't had a chance to talk a whole lot about narcissistic uh parents because um just because we haven't yet, you're like the first with those like, okay, we're gonna be able to talk a lot about this. Okay, good, because I've been waiting for this because I I have a narcissistic parent as well as a narcissistic sibling. And um that is one of the reasons why I'm estranged. It's not because I was judging them for the personality, but because of the personality type and you know, their way of doing things, it was impossible to have a long-lasting, healthy relationship with them. And um, so this is why I want to talk about it because it's very difficult. It's like it, you know, I'm sure you love them and I'm sure they, you know, it's that's not even the issue. It's just the issue is that you can't have a functional like relationship, or it's very difficult to have a functional relationship with a narcissistic parent.

SPEAKER_03: 6:18

Yeah, so I mean, a little bit of what I've kind of learned about, and uh and my fiance is going to like choke me because she tells me all the time that there is basically a term and I should have written it down. Uh, but I that my mom, we've kind of looked at other versions of narcissism, and it's about six words long, but it's kind of funny. It it was the same thing that um oh my goodness, why can I not think of his name? He was the the serial killer that escaped from jail twice, that he's got a bunch of movies that are coming out. Ted Bundy? Yeah, super attractive guy. The serial killer? Ted Bundy? Yeah, the yeah, so like it was him or Charles Manson, one of the two. One of the two was Ted Bundy's gone.

SPEAKER_05: 7:01

I don't know which one's still wait, are we talking about the serial? Not alive. Yeah, not alive.

SPEAKER_03: 7:06

Not alive, not alive, no, but like they people diagnose what they have, and you know, I think it was Char yeah, it was never mine, it wasn't Ted Bundy, it was Charles Manson. So my mom, you kind of just get in the sphere of influence of her where she comes off very nice, and I know that's a terrible way to like try to talk about why something is bad about somebody, but on the surface, she's very nice. But once you start kind of getting deeper than that, you realize she's only nice to a front, and it's only nice when it kind of benefits her. Yeah. So one of the things that really kind of set all of this off was years ago, we we had a we started setting some boundaries with my parents, where specifically my mom, where she would invite people over to family gatherings that we would just be like, you know, we don't we don't want to be around them, right? If they're if they're there, tell us that they're there, so at a minimum, we can get in the right headspace. And she wouldn't do it. Right. And so we're like, okay, so we would we would then kind of escalate the boundary a little bit, like, hey, if they're there, let us know because we don't want to come over. And she wouldn't do it. And it's just like, like, why is this so hard that you can't tell us? And so finally it reached a point where we had to set a boundary where it was like, okay, mom, and we sat down, like my fiance and I, we went to have dinner with my mom and dad. No, this was probably three and a half, four years ago. We sat down, went to go have dinner with them, came back to their house, explained all the reasons why we didn't want to be around this family member, or not family member, but family friend, like that they just couldn't understand why someone that I practically have known since I was since I was born, that they were a neighbor that was always over there. They're like, why don't you want to be around them? And you know, I exp we explained all the reasons where, like, you know, they don't parent their kids, they don't care about anybody's property. You know, their kids were running around. Literally, we bought a new car, the kids ran their bike into the car, and the parents were like, eh, it happens.

SPEAKER_05: 9:15

It's like, no, no, like it's like my hard work, man. It's like we gotta deal with this.

SPEAKER_03: 9:20

Right. You need to like maybe talk to your kids about like, don't just ride your car, your bike into cars. But we had a whole discussion with them, and we've I felt like we reached an understanding where they're like, okay, if they're coming over, we'll let you know. And we're like, okay, then the next time we come over is Thanksgiving. So we know they like to come over for Thanksgiving. So we know they come over for dinner or lunch, whichever one they want to come over for. You just tell us and we'll we'll come over the opposite. Uh-huh. Well, we will be very happy to accommodate. And so I called them that morning. My mom's like, Oh, they're they're gonna go to their family's house. We're not gonna see them today. They're not coming here. We're like, Oh, okay, cool. So we show up to the house, and sure enough, the family's there. And I'm like, I pull my mom to the side. I'm like, hey, um, I thought you said they weren't coming. She's like, I didn't say that. Uh-huh.

unknown: 10:12

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 10:13

What do you what do you mean? Uh-huh. Mean you didn't say that.

SPEAKER_04: 10:15

Textbook. Textbook narcissism.

SPEAKER_03: 10:18

Oh, yeah. It's like, no, I would have never said that because I knew they were coming over all day. I'm like, mom, we just had a phone call.

SPEAKER_04: 10:24

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03: 10:25

Like, like 45 minutes ago before I drove over here, like we had this phone call. And, you know, this kept going until finally we got to the point on that following Christmas, we said, Look, if they're here, we're just gonna leave. And so we did. And we thought that us just leaving was gonna be kind of the wake-up call. Uh, we thought that it would be kind of the the moment that they would understand right that something, okay, this does bother him. That he set the boundary. Maybe we should follow this and like maybe listen to him. Uh not even called all this time as I'm bringing this stuff up with my mom and my dad, they keep kind of uh hinting and saying things that they they think someone's in my ear and they think somebody is influencing me. Yeah, but they won't say who, they won't say what, but they're like, you know, you you seem like you've changed. You seem like something has changed in your life, and you're you're not who you used to be. And I'm just you know, and it's to me, it kind of hurt a little bit that they would even tell me that because I had been trying to explain to them, I've been going to therapy now for a year or two, I'm learning how to vocalize my problems, and I'm learning how to get confidence to explain things are wrong. And as soon as I start doing that, this is when they're telling me, you know, you've changed and we don't like it.

SPEAKER_05: 11:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 11:48

And it's like, what do you not like about it?

SPEAKER_05: 11:51

Yeah, that happened to me too. It was, it was like, you know, they always said, you know, what you know, growing up, they would never listen to me when I would try to explain my problems. And then as an adult, you know, or as you get older, you start acting out, and then they then they're like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, well, you're not really listening to me, you're not really wanting to talk to me. And then like you get older, and like as an adult, they still like don't listen, they don't get it, like they don't hear it, and um, like they can't even acknowledge any of the pain that they cause because like you said, they they as soon as you mention any like negativity about them, they're usually like they divert it, or they blame shift, or or it they're just humble and I'm not like that, and or I didn't do that, or that wasn't the way you remembered it. Like the whole gaslighting thing. I don't know if you heard that term.

SPEAKER_03: 12:45

Yes, gaslighting is a huge weapon of my mother's. Um explain gaslighting for people. So basically, gaslighting is just the idea of making someone feel crazy. Uh, you will tell them things or do things, or kind of the in her for her example of doing things that she would say or do things, and then immediately turn around and do or say the opposite, and then look at you like you were just making something up. Um that like one of the things that so when we I eventually like all of the these like incidents of uh getting together and putting firmer and firmer boundaries resulted in uh one a Christmas two years ago that we showed up to the house. The the boundary that we said of hey, if these people are here, just let us know. We show up, they're there, we start to leave, and it results in a huge fight.

SPEAKER_05: 13:42

Because you set a boundary and they didn't stick to it, and then now you're saying no, right? And you're leaving, and now there's conflict.

SPEAKER_03: 13:51

Right, and I was like, Mom, this is the exact same thing that happened last year. You didn't listen, so we're leaving, and I'll see you later. Well, I walked in, and immediately when I walked in, I kind of read the room. There was a lot of people there, including the people that were kind of the that the we set the boundary with, but I could see my my middle brother, we'll call him C. Um, my middle brother, he looked angry right off the bat as soon as we walked in. And I and I knew he was in a bad mood, didn't know what yet, but I knew he was in a bad mood. And I saw the the friends there, the the family friends there, and I go out to the outside, I talk to my dad for a little bit, come back inside, tell my mom, hey, I told you what I was gonna do. I have to follow through with it because if I don't, you're just not gonna listen. Right. And as soon as I say that, she kind of looks up at my brother and just goes, he's leaving. At which point, my brother explodes and starts screaming and yelling at me. So I'm just like, we gotta get out of here. Yeah, and so my brother is 6'2, about 265 pounds at the time, and has been doing martial arts all his life. So, like, when he makes a fist and he's getting ready to punch me in the head, I'm kind of like, Yeah, all right, this is this is gonna hurt. I need to get out of here. And so we're trying to get away. And about the time I'm trying to get away, my dad starts coming out and he's yelling at us too. And I'm trying to get in the car and he shuts the car door. And I'll never forget what happened. Where all of a sudden we're trying to leave, we're the ones getting yelled at, we're trying to put our dogs back in the car. And my dad's like, if you guys are unhappy, you should just break up. What? Right.

SPEAKER_05: 15:41

Yeah, see. Um, I that's one thing I have to stop you right there and say, like, that is one thing that my narcissistic parent was always trying to do was break up my relationships. It didn't matter who, my spouse or my friends, or relationships I had with cousins or anybody. Like there was even my dad, like, you know, that was there was separation there, also. Like it just seemed like they were always like sabotaging like relationships and things like that.

SPEAKER_03: 16:09

Yeah, and so it yeah, and it's it's crazy because like it was something that I never I had not seen at the time, but like that as soon as I saw them do it one time, all of a sudden things started coming back a little bit that you're like, wait a second. Yeah, and and you're just like, Why did you tell me to break up? Like, what where did that even come from?

SPEAKER_05: 16:31

What does that have to do with the boundary?

SPEAKER_03: 16:34

Right. I'm like, where yeah, exactly. It's like, what where did that even come from? Like, who said anything about breaking up? Right. And I'm just like, okay, that's really weird. And we're sitting there talking about it, I'm like, we oh man, I just realized I skipped over kind of a little bit of a big detail from this Christmas.

SPEAKER_04: 16:57

That's okay. This is a hard topic. Christmas is like a big deal because this is when stuff happens, because this is when families get together, and not everything is always good with family.

SPEAKER_03: 17:06

Right. So part of the reason everybody was so upset and on edge was um my my mom, since she has to be the center of attention, loves hosting parties, and she loves having family in town and loves having everybody over at her house all the time. So my grandfather had so hang on, I'm trying to remember. It's fine, take your time. Yeah, this the it's been a blur uh the last couple years. Um take your time. So part of the reason why everybody was really on edge was my grandfather had been in town and I hadn't been over really to the house to see him. And in fairness, I hadn't been over to the house to see him because I had just started a new job and I was working overtime. And my fiance was finishing up school, so she was writing a thesis. And so we weren't over at my parents' house because they live almost an hour away. And that is still a topic of debate that how far away they live whenever it comes up, that I will bring open up like Google Maps or something and say, it says you are 50 minutes from my house. Why are you arguing me with about this? Right. Like these are facts, you can't just argue facts. Anyway, we hadn't gone over really to see them, so everybody was kind of on edge about that. But one of the big deals that kind of happened around the same time was my brother got engaged. Uh-huh. It kind of at that moment really started pushing me towards something's not right here, something's wrong. We went to go have dinner with my mom and dad, uh, I would say November-ish. And it was after Thanksgiving, but before Christmas. And we went to go have dinner with him, and we said, Hey, thank you for, you know, at this point, they had did they had respected one of the boundaries, so we told them thank you. You let us know that they were there, so we didn't come over. And so we go to dinner, and I know that my brother, who we'll call B, had just was getting ready to probably propose to his girlfriend at the time, now fiance. And while we were at dinner, I asked my mom, I was like, So is B starting to get ready to propose? Like, I s I could see him proposing at at uh, you know, his girlfriend's graduation, and the conversation was very much played down that they were gonna get engaged. As a matter of fact, one of the quotes was, you know, even his girlfriend said that he could see them being together for 43 years and never getting married. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I was like, because I was thinking about proposing to my girlfriend at the time, now fiance. And I was like, you know, I was thinking about proposing to her, and I didn't want to like kind of Step on him if he was getting ready to do it.

SPEAKER_02: 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 20:03

And they said, Oh, yeah, no, no, no problem. He's not he's not gonna do that. As a matter of fact, you know, he just bought a house, so he says he doesn't have money for a ring. But I told your dad we'd loan him the money if he needed it. Which kind of upset me a little bit there because I I c I think my face said I was kind of hurt by that a little bit because not even a year earlier, I had a conversation with my parents and they were like, Are you ever gonna propose to your girlfriend? And I said, Well, we just had to replace an air conditioner and I lost my job, so I don't have money for a ring. Well, that's too bad, you better save up. But yeah, here we are a year later, and the golden child of B is being told, We'll loan you the money if you want it to go get engaged.

SPEAKER_05: 20:51

Okay, Golden Child. Explain that really quick. This is fun, right? This is another one.

SPEAKER_03: 20:57

Uh, golden child is something that I I didn't realize so many people had to deal with this, but as I've been kind of hearing it around and reading about it more and more, the golden child is basically the child that can do no wrong. Uh, in our family, it is the baby, it's the youngest son, and he gets whatever he wants, he can do whatever he wants. Whoever he's dating at the time cannot can can be do no wrong. Yeah, for the most part, there was one girl, but that's neither here nor there. But for the most part, the family will bend over backwards for him, and they're like literally the difference between myself and him, uh, because there's usually if there's a golden child, there's usually a scapegoat.

SPEAKER_04: 21:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 21:40

And the scapegoat's whoever's gonna take the punishment for everybody else. So while the golden child B got arrested multiple times in high school and outside and after high school for like breaking and entering and getting in fights and things like that, he was fine and never can get in trouble. I got a B one time and I got grounded. Like it it's kind of like what where how are these boundaries being set? Right. And even my brothers will say that they're like, you know, B's the golden child. Curtis, you're you're the you know, you're the one that has that has the impossibly high bar set that you can never really top. And then uh in, you know, my other brother C, well, you're the middle child, so no one really pays attention to you.

SPEAKER_05: 22:25

Yeah, right, or you're the black sheep, or you're different from us, or you don't quite mesh with us, or whatever. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 22:31

And and and that's one of the things too, like with my family, it it very much like my entire family is from Louisiana, and they're all for the most part, blue-collar or nursing, blue collar or nursing. And I'm that was the first one to kind of be a white-collar worker. So I got that a lot of like, hey, you know, you sit inside an air conditioning all day, like if you were you're not a real man because you don't want to go out and work, you know, and this, that, and the other. And I'm just like, that's very yeah. Like, why is this the thing that you guys want to bring up? Like, why is this a point of attack? But like, you know, my middle brother C, he gets a white collar job. No one cares. He's a middle child, no one cares. But Curtis, how how dare you? Like, how dare you decide you don't want to go work in an oil field or go offshore somewhere? Like, how dare you?

SPEAKER_05: 23:22

My mother was the narcissistic parent, and uh she uh she had a very um humble beginning, humble life. So did my dad. And so, you know, me and my siblings, we had way more than than they did. And we weren't like super spoiled kids at all by any means, but uh, but we did definitely have more opportunities and we did have more possessions than our parents did when they were growing up. But it seemed to me like any time I'd had more than what my mother had had growing up, which was next to nothing, she always made me feel bad about that. And yeah, the the white collar thing. Like I wanted to do, I wanted to get involved in like online design and stuff back when before it was even a huge thing. And um, you know, and she was like downplaying that, and it was all like, you know, you should just get married and have kids. You know, you don't need all that. So, or that there's no money in that, or you can't do that, or you know, it was there was always like a form of suppressing me, like in anything that I wanted to like accomplish or do better than them, or you know, like it seemed to hurt the ego like a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 24:39

Yeah, it it very much was like it it seems like that sometimes where it's you know, I work in IT, so it very much is oh, all if there's ever a computer problem, we're gonna go to Curtis. But the second like I start talking about that, well, that's over my head. You you you're too smart for us, why don't you go away and talk somewhere else?

SPEAKER_05: 24:59

Right. And then when I was an adult and started doing that kind of stuff myself, you know, doing that stuff on my own, figuring it out, who were they calling? Me. Right. Yeah. But of course, you know, there was never any pay involved, and there was never any. I was always expected to just do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:14

Yeah. Side note, uh, the the F word is a terrible word for everybody to know that. And that's that's friends and family. Do don't do work for friends and family because they don't pay, and the work will grow exponentially.

SPEAKER_04: 25:25

Unless they have the money right in front of your face. Here, do this for me, please.

SPEAKER_03: 25:30

Exactly. That's how business works.

SPEAKER_05: 25:32

That's how business works, even with family.

SPEAKER_03: 25:35

Yeah, even with friends and family, get it in writing because it will grow, and then it will just make a sore point at family gatherings because you didn't do the thing exactly how they wanted.

SPEAKER_04: 25:44

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03: 25:44

So, yeah, so had that conversation with them about like the him him proposing, and they swore up and down he wasn't gonna propose. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. Well, I was like, told him, I was like, Well, we're we're planning on proposing, I've saved up some money getting ready to buy a ring. Cool. So that was Friday, seven days later. I see on Facebook my brother's proposed. And it was exactly as I said, he proposed at his girlfriend's graduation ceremony. So I I texted my other brother and I said, Hey, did you know anything about this? Like, I I just talked with and I was like, Do you know anything about this? And he texted me, and he's like, Yeah, we've known all we've known for like a month or two.

SPEAKER_05: 26:26

Yep, the whole family knows, and you knew nothing. Yep, that was mine, that was the story of my life. Yep. And I'm like people would die and nobody would tell me. Yeah, and then they would tell everyone else that I didn't care to show up to the funeral. Yeah. When I didn't even know.

SPEAKER_03: 26:40

Right, yeah, and that's and that's that was exactly it. That it was sitting there and like, well, why didn't no one tell me?

SPEAKER_02: 26:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:46

And they're like, well, it's not our fault that you don't come around the house anymore. Because that's a big thing in my family. They have Sunday dinners every Sunday.

SPEAKER_05: 26:53

Right. And it's like, well, everyone knows why we don't come around.

SPEAKER_03: 26:57

I was like, that's fine that I didn't know on Sunday. I was like, because I don't show up on Sundays, I was like, I literally had a conversation with mom and dad last week, and I asked them, like, what's going on here? And they told me that they weren't gonna get engaged. Now you're telling me everybody knew for a month? Like, wh why was this kept a secret from me? So I still have never I still never got told by my brother until I went to his house like three months later that he had gotten engaged. Like the only way I knew was through Facebook.

SPEAKER_05: 27:32

Oh, I hate it when that happens.

SPEAKER_03: 27:34

Yeah. And so all of this happened, and then that led up to kind of I wasn't going over to the house. That incident happened. Also, just perfect timing. I had a broken phone, and my phone I was working trying to get my phone replaced, and it took three weeks to get a replacement phone, which oh, that was terrible. And so everybody everybody knew I don't have a working cell phone right now, I'm trying to get it replaced. Right. If you need a hold of me, if you need to get a hold of me, text Becca and I'll call back. Becca's my fiance. I was like, Text Becca, I'll call back. Well, apparently every day my mom was calling and texting my phone, leaving voicemails and text messages that I can't receive because she thought I was lying. Right. And I found that out when I finally got a working phone, I could listen to the voicemails. But while my phone was broken, that entire time, one person called Rebecca and said, Hey, can I talk to Curtis? And immediately she handed the phone to me. And I was like, if you guys really needed me that badly, the one time you did it, she gave me the phone. Like, what do you think's gonna happen? Right, yep. So already when I walk into the house on Christmas, tempers are flaring. My brother bl blows up at me. I thought he was gonna punch me. My dad's telling us to break up, and as the fight starts escalating, Becca comes over and she's like, Hey, let's calm down a little bit. And my brother looks at her and says, Piss off. And I was like, All right, we're going. Like, that's it. We gotta like we're done here. Like, we gotta go. And I and I and I wish uh I would tell you that we left, but at the time, like I still didn't know how to just walk around.

SPEAKER_05: 29:16

You were still processing like what was even happening being said, and you're like, What, what? And he's in your face, like that had to have been scary in the moment.

SPEAKER_03: 29:23

It was it was terrifying in the moment, and there have been so many different versions of the truth and lies from everybody involved, right? That it's just like it's tough to really at this point separate what happened and what didn't happen, but you know, ultimately we ended up kind of standing around talking, and then I was like, We're not going back inside, but like I'm not gonna leave with this having happened. We need to discuss this. And so we went into the garage, and this is where like I should have stayed closer to the door, but we walked in the garage and then they shut the garage door, and then they claim it was just um that it they were just being nice, but then they grabbed our dogs and took them inside. And so, and all for all intents and purposes, we were kind of trapped in there, right? And every time we would like Becca and I would sit there and talk, they would send somebody out to just watch us. We could never be alone, like someone had to be there overseeing what we were talking about, right? Yeah, and so you know, not a whole lot happened there. The family came in and talked. I was bawling like crazy because I had just gone through a whole traumatic thing, and finally, like after probably 35-40 minutes, we got back in the car and we left. And that was two years ago, and that was the last time I went to my parents' house.

SPEAKER_05: 30:42

Man, it still sounds like it's so fresh in your mind still.

SPEAKER_03: 30:46

Like, I I've had to relive it a couple times just because it took a couple months, but I finally convinced my mom I was like, no, you're gonna go to therapy with me. Like, there's no way I'm gonna just keep talking with you. You have to go to therapy with me. We have to have someone that's a professional moderator because I can't have conversations with you or with the family, because as soon as I tell you something, you'll turn around and say something else. Right. Or pretend like the conversation never happened. And I thought having a third party would help that. You know, I thought having somebody taking notes would help that, but only thing it made her do was when she got caught in a lie, storm out. And which kind of made me laugh a little bit when it happened, but at the same time, I'm just like, Well, I saw this coming from a mile away. Cause in and as we were going to therapy, this is where truth started coming out, and this is where kind of some information started coming to light. So when I started going to therapy, one of the first questions was they were doing, you know, family of origin was like, Hey, do you have anybody in your family with depression or anxiety or anything like that? And I was like, I don't know, but I'll find out. So I asked my mom and she's like, nope, no one. Okay, cool. But now when she's coming to therapy and the question comes up, all of a sudden, oh, your uncle, your grandfather, your aunt, right?

SPEAKER_05: 32:12

Yeah, they're all crazy, and you might be too.

SPEAKER_03: 32:15

That is exactly what she said. She goes, Do you think all of you might have anxiety too? Maybe we can medicate you and everything will go back to normal. Yeah, yep. And and so all of this stuff starts coming out, and as we're going through therapy, I bring up, I'm like, so where did this whole thing about dad telling me to break up with Becca come from? Like, that seemed out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02: 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 32:39

Where did that come from? It took a while to start prying it out, and my mom finally admitted, she goes, Well, I just don't like Becca. And I'm like, why not? She's taking you away from me. Why do you think exactly? And I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, Well, you're not coming around the house anymore. And I'm like, Okay, because I'm an adult, I'm 30, I work, you know, 40, 50 hours a week. I don't have I'm like, sorry, you guys live an hour away, and I can't come there every week. Like, we started going to dinner that fit my schedule because we couldn't show up every week. Well, I think because, and this is something that, like, still my mom has not apologized for, and I don't think she realizes when she said this that she ruined just about any relationship she could have with Rebecca after this. And she goes, You know, I think the reason why it's so easy for Rebecca to pull you away from your family is because she has no relationship with her father. And I was like, Mom, you mean her abusive father that you know the entire story of? And she's like, Yeah, if she had a relationship with her dad or tried to make it work, I think she'd be more willing to like work and make this work with us. And it's like the even the therapist was like, Yeah, yeah, that's out of line. Yes, that is not okay. Like, you cannot do that.

SPEAKER_05: 34:05

Yeah, yeah. And see, this is this is what happens usually when you bring your narcissistic, you know, relative or you know, close family member to therapy. Like, there will be a lot of like back and forth, oh no, you did it, and like, what are you doing? Like, or you're not admitting to this, or it's word salad, or you know, you're gaslighting, like that's not the way it happened, or you know, and stuff like that. Yeah, and my therapist, like I never brought my mom to therapy. I thought about it, I knew I could have, and I was like, you know what, it probably wouldn't even do any good because I've I I've tried to I've tried to have other people mediate between me and my parents before, and my parents still cannot even acknowledge even my hurts. Yeah, like it's not even there, they don't even see it at all.

SPEAKER_03: 34:51

Yeah, no, they they don't get it, and it's it's it's crazy. Yeah, and this would happen when we go back and forth and we rehash Christmas a couple times and other family holidays, and and finally, I think it we'd only gone maybe four or five sessions, and my mom was getting frustrated because it we were coming up on holiday season again, we were getting close to July 4th, we were getting close to my birthday, we were getting close to my brother's birthday, and we hadn't fixed this yet. Curtis, you just need to get over this. Like, I don't know what it is, but we forgive and forget in this family. And I'm like, Yeah, it's really easy for you to say you're the one doing this. Right. Like, I don't have to forgive, it's you.

SPEAKER_05: 35:28

There's a difference between forgiving someone and tolerating ongoing bad behavior.

SPEAKER_03: 35:34

Right. Right. And and and so we were in kind of our last session, and my therapist he looked at her and he goes, All right, I just gotta know a question. What do you think of Rebecca? And my mom looks and goes, Oh, I love Rebecca, I think she's the best. Why? Why, apparently, is the question that broke my mom. Because immediately her response was, Well, I mean, I think she's taking away from the family and brainwashing Curtis, but I love her.

SPEAKER_04: 36:06

Right. She can't answer the question.

SPEAKER_03: 36:08

Right. And my therapist goes, You realize what you're saying, that's crazy making. Like that's that's gaslighting. And all my mom heard from that was she immediately like stood up and was like, Are you calling me crazy? And he's like, No, no, I never said that. Like, I said what you were saying is crazy making because that doesn't make any sense. Like those two ideas don't go together.

SPEAKER_05: 36:31

Yeah, it's hard for you to say all those horrible things about this person and then try to make your son think that he that you love her, that you love his his spouse, or you know, yeah. That always bothered me. My, you know, yeah, people would say that, oh, I love you, I love you. It's like, I haven't seen any of that from you. Like, you tell me, but I don't see it at all, and I'm really, really unsure. And I was really, really scared. Like as a kid, like I went through a lot of that. It's like, yeah, that that is a type of gaslighting where they they try and assure you that everything is okay, but you can totally see that it's not.

SPEAKER_03: 37:12

Right. Yeah. And the entire time this is happening, like he's using very basic kind of psychological terms because he's been working with me, so we've gotten some vocabulary down. Right. And so my mom's like, I don't understand all these big words. And I'm like, mom, you said I love her. Then you listed two terrible things as why. Like, are you saying so? I'm like, one of two things is happening here. Either you're lying about that you love her, or you love her because she's a bad she's bad for me. Which is it?

SPEAKER_04: 37:42

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03: 37:44

And then she threw the best temper tantrum I've ever seen a three-year-old throw, like threw herself back on the couch and started flailing her arms. And I just kind of looked at my therapist, like, what do we even do with this? Like, I thought this was the point that like it was that it was over. Like, I was like, we've reached a point that like I think now she realizes something has happened and maybe she's going to change. And we finished up that session after he finally got her to calm down, and when we were in the hallway together, just her and I, waterworks off, emotion gone. You'll be at the house on Sunday. This is enough is enough. I'm tired of this. Come to the house, we'll resolve this without a third party. And I'm just like, no.

SPEAKER_00: 38:32

You are listening to When the Bell Breaks. If you'd like to support the show, leave us a five-star rating on iTunes. For regular updates and information about the show, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

SPEAKER_05: 38:49

When I first got contact, I was like, I can't do this. This is inappropriate. This is not good for my kids. And they were like, Well, you can't just leave the family. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, yes, I can.

SPEAKER_03: 39:03

Right, exactly. I'm like, watch me. Like I'm doing it. Like, you can't do it. And I mean, and honestly, I I'm not gonna lie, at the beginning, after the I I guess it's a little bit of PTSD. Like, whenever cars would drive by, I I would look and make sure it wasn't my family. Because I'm just like, they know where I live. Yeah. And I saw what they would do at their house. Like, what are they gonna do if they come over to my house if I start stop coming over? Like, if they are they gonna drop by unannounced? Like, what are they gonna do? And they've only done it one time, but luckily, like, I wasn't home when they did it. So, like, you know, they came by, neither of us were home, and the only reason we know that they came by was they left a gift on the front porch. It like it was my birthday, so they left me a birthday gift on the front porch. And I'm just like, that's not a reason to come over unannounced, especially with how things are right.

SPEAKER_05: 39:49

That now, the gift giving thing, like, was that the only like have you received any other like unexpected gifts from them like that or unwanted or unwanted contact?

SPEAKER_03: 40:00

No, so for the most part, no. Um I still have not opened those Christmas gifts from that Christmas a couple years ago. And as far as I know, they're still over there. I finally told my mom to go return one of them because I was like, we told we didn't know what you wanted. You kept pestering us for a gift, so we told you to get us something that we actually needed, and so we went and bought it ourselves. Like, go return it because we have it.

SPEAKER_04: 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:25

Um, but like as far as I know, those presents are still like sitting in a closet somewhere. And as far as I know, they're gonna stay there because I don't, I'm not going back over to that house. It's just not gonna happen. And during therapy, a couple of times it was like, well, that won't happen. It's like, but it did. Well, it won't happen again. How can you promise me that? Well, it just won't, I'm because I'm telling you it won't. It's like, yeah, but everything you've you've done and everything you've said says the exact opposite, right? And I'm just like, what's going on here? And so then another thing, while you're going through all of this, you're like, so who all knows about this? Like, now that you've told me that you think Becca is bad for me and is brainwashing me, who all have you told this to? Oh, nobody. Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 41:09

No, no, everybody probably already knows, right?

SPEAKER_03: 41:12

Right. And I'm like, okay, exactly. I'm like, I know what do you mean? I'm like, what do you mean nobody knows? Well, I mean, we talk about it with your brothers and your dad at dinner. I'm like, okay, so like everybody, well, no, just them. They're not gonna tell anybody. Well, then also, like, my best friends know because they came over and we had a big discussion about how that they think that Beck is bad for you. And I'm like, oh, so like everybody that's at the house all the time, this is who you're telling this to. Yeah, we're never coming back over.

SPEAKER_05: 41:37

Nobody, but everybody knows, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 41:40

Right. Yeah, I don't tell anybody, but I but I also like go to my co-workers before I send text messages and tell them, like, is this okay to send to my son because we're going through therapy and I don't want to upset him? Why are you going through therapy? So I have to tell them, but I'm not telling people.

SPEAKER_05: 41:52

Yeah, right. Was it a common thing where you felt like your privacy or your private life was being exposed by the family? Oh, all the time. Yeah, me too. I just wanted to ask you that.

SPEAKER_03: 42:05

Yeah, no, I always like I I think one of the things that that upsets my parents the most um is that Rebecca and I do not use Facebook for the most part. We have Facebook accounts, we might comment every now and again, but me personally, like I log in maybe once every three months just to check and clean up notifications and look at friend requests.

SPEAKER_04: 42:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 42:29

But like it bothers them to no end that we don't post pictures of our life on Facebook, that we don't have status updates all the time, that they can go and look and like and and show off to people and say, look at our kid on Facebook. We we just don't. And and it frustrates them to know in. So like uh so during all of this, I did end up proposing to my girlfriend Rebecca and now my fiance, oh, and fun fact, we're getting married in two days of me recording this. So yay!

SPEAKER_05: 42:58

Oh my gosh, congratulations. So two days, that's oh, I don't want to say a date, don't want to give out your date. But it's fine, you know, yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03: 43:05

We're getting married on May 4th. Uh so lots of people have been making the May the 4th Star Wars jokes with us.

unknown: 43:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 43:12

We just were like, we want a date in May, what's available? And they were like, the 11th, and then we realized that the 12th was Mother's Day, and with all of this going on, we're like, you know what? Bad idea. Let's go back a week. Right. But it ends up working out because it'll be like May 4th is actually our first date's anniversary. So we will have been together for seven years on the day of our wedding. See, that's perfect. Exactly. So I did propose to to her, and we updated our relationship status on Facebook as you Congratulations, thank you. And then we had therapy. I had therapy with my mom like a week or two later, and she brought up with a therapist ha and like brought out her phone and showed things about how Becca was a bad person because Becca didn't go through and like all of the comments from our family. And I I I think he kind of like looked at her like she was like dumb at that point, and I know I was like, Are you really this is the hill you're gonna pick to die on today? And she's like, Yeah, that's rude. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? Like, I thought my brother was gonna punch me in the head, and dad told us to break up, and that's why we're here, and you're upset because of we didn't like something on Facebook.

SPEAKER_04: 44:24

Yeah. Running out of excuses, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:29

So she walked out of that therapy for after asking, you know, why do you love Rebecca and then being confronted and challenged on it. She walked out. And after that happened, I got lunch with my dad a couple times, I got dinner with my brothers, and they just they just kind of seemed apathetic to it all. They were just like, Yeah, okay. When are you gonna come back to dinner?

SPEAKER_05: 44:55

Just come Yeah, they didn't really care like what was going on in your life, they just wanted you there for their show or whatever.

unknown: 45:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 45:02

They they just want me there to be shown off, they just want us there. And like we've recently met with some friends. Uh it's funny, we recently met with the people we set the boundary with because they're like, no one's they're like, we want to know what's going on. Like, what did we do? Can we work this out? We just want to apologize because we're talking about So they came to you, okay.

SPEAKER_05: 45:19

So they came to you wanting to resolve the issue. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 45:23

Let's let's talk, let's figure this out. And I'm like, okay. And their first thing was like, we're sorry for whatever we did. And I'm like, do you know that during this entire time that my brother has yet to apologize? My dad has yet to apologize, my mom has yet to apologize. I was like, but you guys don't even know what we were upset about, and you apologized.

SPEAKER_05: 45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 45:44

Like, even when we were in therapy with my mom, one of the things that was very telling was we so in in our therapy sessions, our my therapist does a thing that's called leap, and it's listen, empathize, like memorize, and then kind of put a person behind it or something like that. And it's an acronym that I cannot remember all the letters, but with it, you're somebody's supposed to tell you like you're supposed to make eye contact, tell someone what your problem is, listen, attempt to empathize, and then repeat that back to them, and then put a personal twist on it so that way they know that you heard it and understand and can say how it feels. And you know, I like it while we're while we're doing it, my mom hears my problem, and he's like, Okay, now it's your turn to like empathize. I don't know how to do this. What's empathy? And it's like it means that you're gonna try to feel what the other person feels, like or understand how they're feeling.

SPEAKER_05: 46:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:44

She threw a fit, she's like, Well, I I I don't know how he's feeling, I don't know how to do this. And I'm like, Do you not have empathy? Like, they have a word for people that don't have empathy, like I'm pretty sure it's sociopath, but like undoubtedly you have to have some sort of empathy.

SPEAKER_05: 47:02

But even narcissists, like, they don't have they have a lack of empathy. Like my my narcissistic family members, like they never cared about like my actual feelings. Like, like if they didn't understand why I got upset sometimes, they didn't understand why I cried sometimes, like they did not understand that. Yeah, so when somebody doesn't have empathy, and then when you grow up with someone like that, it's like you can't even solve anything because they don't even understand, you don't understand each other.

SPEAKER_03: 47:33

Yeah, like and that was part of the reason why I started going. Like I told her I wanted to go to therapy with her. Was like, I thought me, I was like, you know, and it's still at this point, I'm still blaming myself for all of this. I'm like, maybe I'm not able to articulate what I need to say. Like, maybe it's me, like maybe I need someone there to help me be strong through this. And you know, after all of this was done, my therapist was like, You did everything you could. He's like, You he goes, everything you said was like on was was like appropriate and you didn't go out of line, like you were beyond nice. She just doesn't want to listen to you.

SPEAKER_05: 48:10

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you wanted a therapy with you. I mean, that shows that you're trying that you're making effort. I mean, in a big, big personal way.

SPEAKER_03: 48:17

Yeah, and she never could connect the dots. Like in her therapy session, she's like, I don't think Curtis is trying, he's just not even trying. And he and my therapist, like, three or four times had to tell her every session, he invited you here. He's he's paying, you know, close to a hundred dollars a session here, and he's brought you in for five or six of these. Like, how can you look at that and say that he doesn't want you here?

SPEAKER_05: 48:38

Like, right, right, right. And I always put it on the table. I always, you know, said, okay, you know, when I told my parents I was cutting contact, I was like, if you want to talk to me again, you need to go, like, there's a few things that need to happen. One of them was going to counseling.

SPEAKER_02: 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 48:54

And it's been almost four years now, and the excuse is they still don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_03: 49:00

Yeah, no, that that if I if I had a dollar, I could pay for all the therapy.

SPEAKER_05: 49:04

Yeah, they still don't even know that, like, they still it's like they have apnesia selectively, they don't remember anything that happened, or they remember it however they think that it happened. And you know, my kids were even witnesses to some of these things, and they're like, What? Grandma said what? Yeah, you know, like no, yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:25

It's crazy because like so, while we were still going to see my therapist, like my my mom, my dad's mom passed, and they had a funeral in Louisiana, and everybody was kind of like, All right, what's gonna happen? And especially Rebecca and I, because we're like, all right, well, we're gonna go down there. And I was like, Do you want to go with me? Because at this point, ever all we had heard from anybody in my family had just been through my mom, and all we were hearing was, you know, Becca's the devil, Becca's terrible, Becca's brainwashing Curtis, Becca is is, you know, she needs to go. And it's like, I was like, I don't feel safe bringing you to the funeral. I was like, but I don't necessarily want to drive 11 hours one way by myself.

SPEAKER_05: 50:11

Yeah, right. No, that's an important thing. You want her there with you.

SPEAKER_03: 50:15

Yeah, and so she came with me, and immediately it was it was apparent that something was said. So we we get there, and I'm looking around to see if I can find like my family and my dad and my mom, and we walk up, start walking up to the body, and my mom comes up, and she like she starts rubbing my back to like comfort me, but like at the same time, she's like pushing Becca's hand off of my back. And it's like what are what are you doing here? And so we we're like, so we do that, and we go and we sit with the family, and we start I start talking with my brother and his fiance, and then my middle brother and his girlfriend at the time, who's also his fiancee, because you know, the middle child, he's got to go ahead and get some attention there too. Um, so yeah, there's three weddings this year, by the way. Um, but we're sitting there having a conversation with the girlfriend at the time who I like we don't get along, but she's trying, she's like, it's a funeral, so we're gonna just, you know, talk. And my brother C literally comes and sits between us and like turns his back to Rebecca to cut her out of the conversation.

SPEAKER_05: 51:29

Yeah, I hate that sort of childish stuff. That's just so like that's even gonna do anything, but just make you both angry and right not at each other. You're just gonna like it's more like drama bonding then. You're like, we're gonna stick together because they're being mean to us. Oh, yeah. It's like you're just making it worth it. If you don't want us to be together, he's like, you're not really trying very hard, you're just making us stick together because you guys are being awful to each other, you know, to us.

SPEAKER_03: 51:54

Exactly. Like, and one of the things too, I was like, I told like I told my mom in therapy, I was like, it seemed like you went ahead and you told like all the family you talked to what's going on. And she goes, We didn't tell anybody, it's embarrassing. I'm like, how come all of the cousins that we hang out with in Louisiana like wanted nothing to do with me and literally walk the other direction as we started walking over there with Rebecca? But all of the other family that is estranged too from all of you, they loved me and they wanted to come talk to me and they wanted to meet us and and know what was going on and felt bad that we literally drove down from drove down to Louisiana for the funeral, and then we're going to turn around and go right back. Like they were super sympathetic about that. And you you're telling me these people that you don't talk to are being nice to us because we're at a funeral, but the ones you do talk to are ignoring us, but you didn't say anything. And so we we're coming up with we're talking about the stuff in therapy, and this was another point of contention I had for my mom was every time I would bring up an example, if she wanted to stay on the subject, she would have a million and one excuses for everybody else. Right. But like the second I would like if if I had an excuse or did something for me, I would empathize with her and be like, I can see how that would happen, and I'm sorry for that. And I'm like, but that wasn't my intention. No, you that's what you did. But when I say my brother sat in front of us and like turned his back to Rebecca, oh no, that's not what he did. Like he he was just sitting there because his back hurt.

SPEAKER_05: 53:28

And I'm like, how like how you how what happened isn't the way you remembered it, and what they did wasn't really what happened to you.

SPEAKER_03: 53:36

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 53:38

Yeah, and finally I got her to at least say, Well, I didn't see it, so I don't know. And I'm just like, okay. And like another, but fair enough. Whatever. But one of the things that like we brought up to in therapy one time was I was like, you know, that dad like glared at Rebecca, like didn't say a word to her. In fairness, I was like, Rebecca didn't walk up to him because when she started to, he looked angrily at her. So we what was that about? And my dad owned up to it and said, Yeah, I was upset. And I'm like, why? And he's like, Because of all these things. I'm like, you know, none of that's true.

SPEAKER_05: 54:09

Like they would maybe get to know her, and if maybe they wouldn't do things to entice you guys to leave, maybe they could spend time with her and talk to her.

SPEAKER_03: 54:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 54:19

But that doesn't really happen.

SPEAKER_03: 54:20

No, that doesn't really and so we drive back and we have a conversation, but one of the things that I I I kind of had to look at as like kind of a growth point was as we were getting ready to leave the funeral, everybody kept saying, just come inside, just come with us, just come back to the house, just just come to dinner real quick, just come over here. And I'm just like, no, no, this is Christmas all over again. Like, yeah, it's just come to the house, just come to the house. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05: 54:49

That hasn't worked, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:51

Like, I'm leaving. This doesn't work anymore. And we left. And at that therapy session, we found out something that really cemented why all the problems are happening. So at that time, Becca and I had been together for about six years, and I asked my mom, I'm like, why do you think that like she's brainwashing me? Like, why do you think that she's bad for me? Like, why is dad telling me to break up with her? Like, where is all of this coming from? And she's like, Well, when you lived with your brother, he saw you and Becca fight. I'm like, What? What do you mean he saw us fight? And he's like, Yeah, he saw you fight one time, and he said that you were crying and said you wanted to break up. And I'm like, What? When did that even happen? Like, I I don't remember this at all. And so I and I was like, I was like, when would that have even happened? And she's like, Oh, it would have been like, I don't know, like five years ago. And I was like, So when Rebecca and I had been dating for six months, we had a fight, and Kobe saw it, and then his first reaction was, go to you, and and you guys have held on to that ever since.

SPEAKER_05: 56:03

For six years about the fight that supposedly happened when you guys were first dating that they assumed you hadn't resolved. I yeah. Yeah, see, I hate that stuff. Oh, see how confusing it is? It's like it's exhausting thinking about because there's so much, there's so much freaking details in all the stuff they do. Yeah, there were there were a lot of like um quote unquote false accusations or whatever, like made against like uh like my spouse or me. Um and and and we were like looking at each other like that never even happened, like they could never even like get even close to even we could totally prove that didn't happen, like you know, like and it's like why do they say this? Why do they do this? But like they cannot like ever acknowledge the the wrong, or they've gotta if if there's no wrong in you, they have to create something.

SPEAKER_03: 56:52

Right. And and and I was sitting there and I was like, and when I talked to them about it, I was like, I I asked my brother about it, and then I was sitting there, and when we started talking about it, he's like, Yeah, this was like what you told the one friend that you set the boundary with, like you said you were gonna break up. And I I remembered and I was like, Oh, that fight? I was like, Yeah, we had a fight because we had been dating for six months, and she asked, How's the relationship going? And I said, I don't know. We had a fight, I think she might break up with me, but we worked it out because we're adults, yeah, and we moved on, like it's been some time since. Right, it's been about six years, so yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 57:34

Right, yeah, that's another thing. Like, they don't handle change very well. I've come to find out, like, my my narcissistic relatives, they don't handle change very well. And you know, I it sounds like a lot of cutting them down and and stuff like that, but it's like a lot of it really they can't help because narcissism isn't something they choose to be. Really? It's some it's something that often happens in early childhood. So it's like there's a lot of you know, getting out our feelings and kind of hashing it out about narcissism, but really this is why we try and get them in the therapy because they need it. Right. Because they can't empathize and it causes problems in relationships and it and it's potentially dangerous because there's rage and there's lots of control issues going on. They have they I mean, I remember when when my older siblings got married and moved, and like like my mother did not handle those changes very well. She tried to hide that, but she did not like that because she was losing control, and that's why they get angry when you set boundaries and when you say no, and when you say no, I'm not going over to dinner because they don't have you in a position of control anymore. It's very, very upsetting to have a relationship or to have relatives with this personality disorder because you can't have a good functioning relationship. It's very, very difficult. And um, it there's a lot of grief that comes with that. And I'm so glad you called because um I've been wanting to talk about this for like a long time. I was like, but I'm gonna wait until like my guests do because I don't want to bring it up because it's like you know, I don't want to make it all about me or whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 59:03

And and grief's a good word because like that was something that after my mom walked out of the the therapy with the first time, like when she left my therapist, he's like, You're he goes, I I'm he goes, I never advocate for no contact, and I'm not gonna tell you that you need to estrange yourself. He's like, I'm always of the mindset that you can probably fix it. But he goes, after what I just saw, he goes, It's going to be really hard. He's like, You're going to because he goes, looking at how your mom was, he goes, You're you're going to be the one that if you want this to work, you're going to be the one that has to put in all the effort, and it might never be reciprocated. And he and he's like, So, what I will tell you, he's like, While I'm not telling you that to to have no contact ever, I am telling you you're going to be going through a similar grieving process of somebody dying because for all intents and purposes, your family's starting to die to you. And he's like, You're gonna go through a lot of the same. Emotions of that. You're going to be, you know, you're losing a mother, you're losing a father, you're losing your two brothers because they can't stand to be around your fiance or they can't they can't deal with what you've changed into. So you just have to learn to deal with the grief. And you're gonna have to go through all the stages just like you know a family member died.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:24

Yeah, and it's not like we go there ourselves, or they're dead to me. We don't even go there. We're trying to, we're working hard trying to fix the relationship. But it when you have to cease contact like that, it is like they've died. You you've had to detach and you're they're not there anymore. You can't go to them anymore, and you know why you can't go to them anymore, and that's why you don't, because you know it's gonna be um ineffective and it's gonna hurt you more in the long run. And then you have to learn how to parent yourself when you're an adult, and you know, at key moments in your life, and it's it's it's very, very tough and it's confusing, and then you start thinking you have time to think now that you've detached yourself from you know from the relationship, then you'll have time to think about a lot of those things, um, you know, without being gaslit or any of that, you know, that stuff too. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:12

Yeah. I mean, even now I had this conversation with Rebecca last night that it's like due to a lot of this stuff, I still find myself second guessing things. I still find myself just going, Am I doing the right thing about this? Because, you know, as all of these weddings are coming up, you know, my brother a year or so ago, like after all this happened, was like, I want you to be a groomsman. And I told him then, I said, Well, the family has a lot that we need to go through and work out before I'll feel comfortable enough to be up on the stage while Rebecca's alone in the audience with the family. And we just had like kind of a a we had a little text message off at the beginning of the month where as I'm starting to talk about these things, and I'm like, you know, my wedding's in a month and your wedding's in two months, you still have not done anything like to show me that we're gonna be okay, and the rest of the family has done nothing to really make this better. And we start going through some of the things that have happened over the last year, and immediately my brother, it's funny, starts setting boundaries about what we can talk about. And it's like I start bringing up the funeral and how that we were what happened at the funeral can be a good indication of what's gonna happen at the wedding. And he's like, Well, we can't talk about that. That was a rough time for everybody. Don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:28

Yeah, don't talk about that, don't fix that problem, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:32

And I'm like, but if we can't talk about like you're sitting here going, don't talk about this evidence, show me evidence of why you'd think she'd be unsafe by herself. And so finally I told him, I was like, Yeah, I mean, if this isn't gonna work out, then like I'm just gonna be in the audience with her and I will support, and you'll have to find another groomsman. I'm like, that's all there is to it. Like, I still sit there and like wonder if, like, you know, did I do the right thing? It's like, yeah, of course I did the right thing. Like, Rebecca's my family, like, and that's what I keep telling all of them that they're having trouble understanding. It's I'm like, when I I'm like, even at this point now, but Rebecca will be my wife in two days, and my she is now my family, and you guys become extended family. I was like, You guys are no longer on a level playing field, Becca comes first, her needs come first. And I said, I would fully expect that you would say the same thing about your fiance, that you would put her needs over mine. At least I hope you would. Right. And that killed the conversation. He stopped texting. So I'm just like, I guess um Maybe he gets it, maybe. Right, and and I did that when we first started talking at the beginning of the month. I sent him a text message and I started talking with him. I said, Look, I realize I've presented you all of the evidence of like here's the funeral, and here was Christmas, and here's all the things that mom had been has been saying about Rebecca in our therapy sessions. And I ended with, What if I said this stuff about your fiance? What if I said all of these bad things about her? And I didn't hear anything for like three days. And so I texted him back. I said, I get that this is a really difficult conversation, and I'm putting you in a weird place because you have to either agree with me or agree with mom, and you don't know what to do. And he came back and just was like, uh no, I know what to do. And he's like, You're just blaming everybody for all your problems. You need to just figure this out. And I'm like, wait a minute.

unknown: 1:04:30

What?

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:30

Where did that even problem? Yeah, so it's like I leave because you're my problem and you tell me to fix my problem so that you can come back. It's like, but I'm trying to tell you that you're the problem. Y'all are the yeah, they can't wrap their head around that either.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:44

No, it isn't that. That's hard. It's a it's a uh it's a it's a tough place to be in. Um they're invited to the wedding.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:53

Um I was gonna ask, I was like, that's gonna be the clincher. That's gonna be whatever we're gonna be wondering if they're invited.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:59

If I see a part two of this episode, spoilers, it didn't go well. Um uh but we invited them and they know that they're they're gonna be just guests like anybody else. Like we're like, there's a there's a family section that you guys can sit in, but like you're they're you're not we're not doing the you know, the the mother of the groom isn't going to have a walk down the aisle. My brothers aren't users, my dad, like my dad was like asking what uh what you know what kind of suit do I need to wear? Do you are you do I need to go get one? Like, where's it? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, why why would you need anything? He's like, Well, I I'm I'm a and I found out later he's a groomsman at my brother's wedding. So, like, he I think thought he was gonna be one too in mine. And I'm just like, no.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:49

I'm like, you guys, not all weddings are created equal.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:54

I'm just like, that's not that's not how this works. Like, none of you guys, and so of course, like they're all wanting to try to fix things now. And I'm like, guys, we'll have plenty of time after the wedding. You've had a year and a half, two years to like have these conversations with me and try to fix things, and none of you have done it, and inactions have consequences, like you haven't done anything. And so one of the things that kind of made me laugh was so last Saturday was my bachelor party, and I invited my brothers, but I had a bunch of friends, and I also had Rebecca's brothers there with me. So I knew if they tried to get out of line, her brothers at least knew kind of what was going on, and they were gonna, she wasn't gonna let they wouldn't let them speak ill of her with them there. So go out, you know, we go to a couple bars, play some pool, play some board games, lots of drinking. I wake up Sunday and nursing a hangover, and I get a text message from my brother, and it's a group text with both of my brothers on it saying, Are we still good for dinner on Tuesday? And I'm just like, What are we talking about? Dinner on Tuesday.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:01

This again.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:02

Yeah, oh my god. When you talk about dinner on Tuesday, they're like, Oh, at your bachelor party, we talked and we we said we should go get dinner. I was like, When when was this? Like, when would that have happened? Like, was it when I was drunk? Because that's not a good time to like bring this stuff up.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:19

Did you drink? And I was like, Did you put it in writing?

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:22

No, and apparently no. The and I I never heard anything back from them because that killed the text thread when I was like, guys, this is the week of my wedding. I am busy every night this week.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:32

Like, I am not about to go and go to dinner to try to solve all of this problems right now.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:38

I feel I have to say, I really feel important right now that you made time to call this show.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:44

Oh, you're oh my god, anyway.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:46

But yeah, you're definitely like busy and yeah, see, they just want everything to go back the same, like the way that it was, like to continue, like right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:56

They they just like seriously, even like when we went and had the conversation with the friends that we set the boundary with, even they said they're like they were like, You, you know, everything around the house now is you're not here, so that's one of the first things everybody has to talk about. And I think it it both I think probably brings joy to my mom that then she can make everybody feel bad for her, but then realizes I'm the attention from it because I'm not showing up there now. But they said, like, just come to dinner, just come to dinner, and I'm like, no, like that won't solve the problem.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:27

Right, it's not, it's not solving the problem of therapy either.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:31

Right, exactly. So it'll be very interesting to see what happens the Saturday at the wedding. Uh, you know, it's one of those things where uh the the event coordinator knows, and I was like, Yeah, if we if we say, hey, you know, they gotta go, it's not a joke, so take it seriously. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, no, it's um it's it's been a f like a uh an interesting couple of years, and just trying to wrap my head around all of this and understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:01

And yeah, it is a lot. Like when I first like really understood what narcissistic personality disorder was, it horrified me. Like, I was just like how awful, like even they like have to go through this, like like I feel bad like for them like in a lot of ways, and like there's not a lot of things they're gonna be able to do to correct these things, and so it was a shock to me, like learning all of this, and like I had not just grief that I couldn't be around them, but knowing why, and knowing there wasn't really anything I could do about it, and that I had exhausted myself for so many years trying to solve the problems that couldn't be solved, and you know, so yeah, it was like it was a lot to wrap my head around, and then it was like the future. What's gonna happen in the future? Are they gonna be allowed to see my kids anymore? Or am I ever going to be able to get in a room with them and talk to them? What's gonna happen when someone passes away? These are things that I had to think about, and um they're not fun, they're not fun, and you know, yeah, and I'm sure you're that's a I'm sure you you and Becca are having those conversations all the time.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:09

Yeah, it's definitely um uh, you know, we had the funeral, and you know, we we know that kids are you know in the foreseeable future. And you know, one of the things that I've told Becca that worries me more than anything is that you know, we're cutting, you know, we're gonna probably be cutting contact after, you know, here I'm guessing here shortly that something's gonna happen. I can just feel it, that we're probably gonna have to cut kind of cut contact, which means that they're not gonna be able to see the grandkids. Well, one of the things that really concerns me that I told Becca there's gotta be a way for us to kind of solve this or know how to get reporting on it, is that my mom and a lot of my family are in healthcare. And I'm like, I don't want my mom to be able to access our kids' health records. And so I'm like immediately I'm just gonna like whatever doctor we go to, I'm gonna be like, Are you part of this network? If you are, is there any way I can lock certain people out of our files or get reporting of when certain people see our files because they should not be seeing it?

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:12

Yeah, yeah. So now you're probably, I mean, I don't want to assume, but like like then you start thinking about like, well, what if what if it does get worse? And then you're like thinking, like, gosh, legal consultation? Like, then you're then you're starting, do I need to call a lawyer and ask? Like, really, what do I what do I do? Right. And it varies state to state. It's like, yeah, when when you and and you just you hit the nail on the head. Now you switch things up now because this is what happens. Then when you have kids, then it's like everything becomes very logistical and very formal and very um scary, even sometimes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:48

Right. And that's like, you know, one of the things that like I said, when this first happened, like, yeah, I I every time a car would drive by, I was looking out the window, like, is it my dad? Is it my mom? Because even right even before the Christmas blow up, one of the things that made me think that was like while we were having the conversation outside at the Christmas blowup, I had talked with my mom on the or my dad was telling me when I called my mom, my mom started crying. And my mom started crying because I pressured her and I was like, Why are you calling me a liar? Like, what did I do to deserve being called a liar? What did I lie about?

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:22

And she started crying on the phone, and I was just like, Mom, why are you crying? Like, I asked, What did I lie about? She couldn't answer the question.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:28

She couldn't answer the question.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:30

Right. And so my dad, my dad said, When I got home, your mom was bawling and said you yelled at her, and I was getting ready to come find you. And I was like, Did she tell you why she was crying? No, but I was gonna come find you. And so, yeah, after that, I was like, I'm looking out the window when the cars drive by. Like, I'd probably do that for a good six months of like, is that them? Is that one of them?

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:50

I did that too. Yeah, I did that too. I was very, very anxious. Like, yeah, I was very, very anxious about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:58

Yeah, it it and like I said, I'm still like I still will talk with my family. It's it's kind of funny that like while I haven't really talked with my dad much or my brothers as much as I used to, and I see my mom at therapy. Like, my mom's mom, who lives in the same town as all of us, actually lives like two blocks from my brother, but like nobody talks to really, except on holidays, and nobody really goes to see her. Like, I've seen her more since all of this has happened and talked to her more since all of this has happened because she doesn't get involved with the family because she doesn't really ever see them.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:34

Even your even your own, even her own daughter, like really like your mom doesn't see her.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:40

No, like my mom will see her and go like might go pick her up for like the holidays, but they and my they might go get lunch once every few months, but she's lived she lived within like five or ten minutes of my of my house growing up, and we rarely saw her. Like, my mom wouldn't go over there and talk with her, and so it's one of those things like I kind of wonder if something happened there and that like kind of similar issue, or maybe my grandma called her out on it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 1:14:08

But it's funny that like it goes back, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:11

Yeah, I've seen her so much more now that all of this has happened than I ever did before all of this happened. Wow. Yeah, it's weird the places that you will find that as you start kind of shining light on other things, you will start seeing more of like other people and other things that you'll start looking at other other actions and being like, yeah, that wasn't okay.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:34

Like yeah, there's like a detox process. Like one, like when you're in the relationship, everything is seems so confusing and so like what is going on? Who is actually saying what? Because no, that didn't happen. And it's just like it's pure confusion, it's like Tower of Babel. It's like, what is this nonsense? And then when you when you take a step away and then you have time to when you turn the noise down, then you can hear yourself thank and then be like, well, like organize my own thoughts.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:02

And here's what's fun when you do that too. At least this is what happens with my family. We'll go through all of that stuff, we'll go through all the details, and when I come back later and can kind of decompress and write up all my thoughts into an email to my mom or a text message to my mom, or write it up because I know I have therapy in a couple days and I'll bring it up.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:24

Magically, she can't grasp that like I could go back and reprocess this stuff. This just helped reaffirm her that I would go home, talk with Becca, who would then brainwash me to change the scenario. And I'm like, What?

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:39

Yeah, no, no, my my mother did that. She would always make these assumptions that like my husband was brainwashing me. She didn't realize like we communicated with each other, and so they were always trying to lie to get us to fight when they didn't realize we communicated so well that like we saw their lies like right away, and we're like, Right, what the fuck are they saying? Like, did you get that text? Like, that's not what happened. Like, no, that we talked about this, like they're that's bullshit. Like, they're trying to make us arcu.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:05

Right. You just sit there and you just kind of you're just like, Where is all this coming from? Because like, and since I had there, I always say that there's like six different truths. Cause even like the whole proposal thing with my brother that like my mom, you know, the family knew for a month. And when I finally did talk with my brother, his story was completely different. And then I was like, Oh, okay, like what happened? He's like, Well, I wasn't planning on proposing, and then I got pressured come Monday after the dinner from but he said from her dad.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:38

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:40

But but but yeah, very much at that thought crossed my mind where I think you were going, that he all of a sudden felt pressured that he needed to propose right then and there. Yeah, then then mom and dad were like, Oh, you need to go and we're gonna go and get you a ring, we'll go get you a ring, let's go get you a ring, let's go get you a ring.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:57

And he he said he felt overwhelmed with that. Oh, geez. But then so I brought that up to my mom, and she's like, Oh no, that didn't happen. That didn't happen, that didn't happen. And then when I brought it up again to my brother, no, that didn't happen. Where'd you hear that from?

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:12

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:13

And so I'm like, so who's getting brainwashed here? Who's going back and like Yeah, it looks like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:21

Yeah, I know, right? It's confusing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:23

Yeah, and trying to keep track of it all. It's like I'm out, I'm out of breadcrumbs.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:26

Yeah, even that is exhausting. Even that, even just like, even if there's no real trauma happening in your family, just the normal, um, everyday chaos of of narcissism, yeah, it's it's so hard to organize because you don't they don't communicate normally or like the like in an effective way, like they're distorting information or they're exaggerating or they're leaving things out or they're twisting things or they're getting people upset. It's always it's just always a game like that. And the only way to win is to not play.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:55

Exactly. That's exactly right. Like you just you have to just tell them no, you're not gonna put up with it anymore. Because you yeah, you will exhaust yourself just trying to get story straight, and probably never will.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:08

Okay, well, I want to leave a little room for part two. I really want to hear back from you when everything's settled and you guys are all, you know, just oh yeah, honeymoon's over, you know, like when things calm down.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:21

I'll tell you all about the wedding and all about Egypt and then Egypt. Yes, that's where we're going for our honeymoon.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:27

That is so cool. How exciting. Oh my gosh, I've always wanted to go there. I love like ancient Egyptian history and stuff like that. I'm a huge history nerd.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:36

Yeah, it we're that that's part of the reason why, because Rebecca's the the big history buff in our between the two of us.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:43

And so does she watch documentaries in her spare time too?

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:46

All the time.

unknown: 1:18:47

All the time.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:48

Girl, we should watch, we should hook up and like watch documentaries.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:52

Oh, yeah. Like, you know, all the the documentaries, and I and you know, all she's a murderino, and she got me to be a murderino. So we're we're all into that now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:01

That sounds like fun. Well, if there's anything else you want to say to listeners, or if there's anything else that you're contemplating that you want to hold for next time, or anything else you want to say real quick before we sign off and you continue with your wedding plans.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:17

Yeah, no, I just I know that a lot of people probably like I said at the beginning, I know a lot of people hear these stories of estrangement, or they'll go on like Reddit and go to like our narcissistic parents or something like that, or not today, mother-in-law, and they see all that stuff and they're like, Well, at least it's not that bad for me. You you don't realize still that what you're going through probably isn't normal, and it's very draining on you and relationships. Like, all of the stuff that, like, all of probably the worst trials and tribulations of stuff in our relationship with Rebecca and I that we have gone through, this has been the hardest because it's for a while there it it very much is. your your mother is pitting yourself against the woman you marry and you have to make that decision and it really does feel like you know there I use like kind of the analogy of if someone was like putting a gun to one of their heads who do you pick and that's kind of what it feels like even though you know both are going to be alive at the end of the day it still feels like you you've reached a point where you're like I either have to kill the relationship I have with my mother or I have to kill the relationship I have with my significant other. And no one should put you in that position. Like it should not get to where you feel like you're pressured into having to make that decision. Right. And you know as all of this is happening and you research it there are lots of people that are going through this. And I will say as the oldest son it seems to be the most common that the oldest son was always the child in your mother's eyes and probably still sees you as you were in like high school or middle school wherever wherever you were in life where she peaked that's how she sees you and doesn't want you to grow past that. So when you finally meet that person that's going to help you grow that now you confide into now you tell your secrets to this person and not your mother like that it turns her world upside down. Yeah it does and that's been one of the things of like well I didn't when I tell my mom like yeah sorry I lost my job and like we were kind of broke that's why we didn't do that. Well I didn't know why didn't you tell me I'm like because why would I like it's not like I don't need you worrying about this but exactly or using it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:37

Right. Because that happens too like sometimes they they when they know your weaknesses like oftentimes they'll hit you where it hurts and um that is another reason why you don't go you go no contact because they know you know like that I had low self-esteem or whatever. You know they pick at that you know they know exactly like how to break you down and um you have to protect yourself from that and now you have like you said earlier you have a family now.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:04

You know yeah you you're responsible to that right Rebecca comes first and that's that's that's how it is like you gotta you have to make that decision of you know hopefully it's easy for it's easier for everybody else than it was you know for me at the beginning because at the beginning I very much felt like I was you know killing my family off to protect Becca and I've told them many times and because I realized it wasn't me doing this. I told my mom and I've told my brothers and I told my dad I was like through all of this all you guys are doing is you're trying to tear down Becca but I don't think you realize I'm standing in front of her and you're ripping me to shreds to do this.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:43

I hope everything goes well I really do and I hope things turn out really nice for you and Becca and that you guys have some peace and quiet for a little while and that nobody's gonna be bugging you guys for a little while and um I hope that you know we all hope that things will go right but I know that not everything will but I hope that you know you'll be able to cope with those things that don't and you know just I don't know good wishes for both of you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:11

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah we're we're we're contemplating just like turning phones off when we get on a plane on Sunday and just like it's like taking two weeks of just pure vacation and just being like I'm out and letting this decompress and then come back in two weeks and see what's transpired and what's exploded and be ready for my brother's birthday if we're wedding if we're going. If you're going right a lot could change between now and then right exactly a lot could change in the next 72 hours for sure.

unknown: 1:23:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:41

Well thank you very much Curtis for calling on the show I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:45

Oh thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:46

All right we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:48

Awesome sounds great all right thanks for calling bye bye if you'd like to be a guest or just say hello email us wtvb podcast at gmail.com thank you for listening to when the vow breaks