things will get DiFFeReNT

Though our guest Alexander Desmerais suffered the most vile of childhood traumas, and continues to be estranged from any meaningful family bonds, he has developed a productive approach to life that should serve as an example to all of us. He reminds us that no matter how terrible an experience, it is temporary. He goes on to teach us that trauma is as impermanent as we’re willing to do the work to make it.

...Alexander Desmarais is an undergraduate student working to become a counselor. 

...Canadian resources:

...If you need help in Canada please call the suicide hotline. It's open 24/7, staffed with caring people who just want to help. 1-800-SUICIDE (1-800-784-2433)

...To speak with a trained counselor any time, and you're under the age of 25, please call the kids help line at 1-800-668-6868. If you can’t call but have access to the internet, please visit www.YouthinBC.com

...For youth and young adult help and information www.mindcheck.ca is an excellent resource.

...For sexual education resources, please go to www.scarleteen.com. This is an incredible resource for both youth and educators not only to learn how to talk about sex and sex education, but an incredible archive of useful knowledge for people of all ages!

...USA resources:

...If you need help in the US, please call the suicide lifeline 1-800-273-8255 or visit https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

...For access to counselling online, visit https://etherapypro.com, or speak to your doctor about options available to you.

to support the show visit www.buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The following is a Kingfisher media production.

SPEAKER_04: 0:19

You are listening to When the Bell Breaks podcast. This is your host, Alexis Erlin. Today I am with Alexander Demray. Oh, wait a minute. Is this for this is this let's see here. Hold on. Well, this is gonna be funny for our listeners, really quick. I don't even want to edit this out because we have more than one show we're working on, and now I'm almost forgetting which show this is for. So this is really funny. Um is this for WTVV or is this for what I like about you podcasts?

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

This is this is when the bow breaks.

SPEAKER_04: 0:49

That's what I thought, just checking. So I'm gonna plug that right away, just you know, in case I forget later. So anyway, this is when the bow breaks today. Um that was a really, really funny fluke. Uh, my apologies. But anyway, yes, this is when the bow breaks. And the reason why I got confused is because Alexander Demray is also guesting on What I Like About You podcast. So that is really the genuine reason why I got confused. So without further ado, Alexander Demray, will you please say hello to our listeners and give us a little bit of a brief bio about yourself so we kind of get to know like what you're all about.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Okay. Well, it's very nice to talk to you guys. My name's Alexander. So I just wanted to start with just a really quick little disclaimer for myself. So uh I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a guy in an undergraduate study, and I'm trying to become a counselor. If you're feeling, you know, not safe, you need some help, you live in the Fraser Valley region, you know, at any time you can feel free to contact me via Facebook at Alexander Demoray, which is spelled D-E-S-M-A-R-A-I-S, or you can contact me directly at my work email, which is videomaker at live.ca.

SPEAKER_02: 2:02

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01: 2:03

Yeah. So I just wanted to reach out to anybody who might be listening to this podcast and and you know might be hurting and and you know wants uh a stranger to talk to.

SPEAKER_04: 2:12

Right. Sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger than someone we know, eh?

SPEAKER_01: 2:17

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 2:20

So why don't you give me a little bit of a background about yourself? You have a really, really interesting story, and I've kept in the dark about your story on purpose. I know AC is is uh you guys know each other, and um so he's refrained from giving me too much information because I really like to experience this for the first time on the show along with our listeners. So tell me a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 2:45

Okay. Well, um, so I grew up in foster care with a pretty, pretty unique situation as far as you know, interactions go with the Canadian Protective Child Protective Agency. I was a I was later adopted by my aunt and uncle, my great aunt and uncle, actually, with my two older twin brothers, um, along with a plethora of other children. Um, I believe at this time, though I haven't met all of them, I have seven brothers and two sisters. So quite the quite the family.

SPEAKER_04: 3:18

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

Yeah. And uh so I don't know most of them because some of them came after I did, but uh at the time I had three brothers and one sister when I was first adopted. Um and uh I moved out very young. You know, I became uh I became an adult at 15. Got my first first job at 15. You know, I went and uh I got to meet my biological parents, which is just a whole nightmare all on its own. And uh yeah, I ended up living with them for a short period of time uh you know during my my transition into being a functioning member of society. Um and then uh yeah, I transferred off into the working world and I've I've been there ever since.

SPEAKER_04: 4:10

So so 15. I remember being 15, right? I'm just gonna go back a little bit. I also have a 15-year-old. It's crazy for me to think of her being in and out of foster care and then all of a sudden being on completely on her own at 15 and having a job and supporting herself. Yeah, did you feel prepared for that?

SPEAKER_01: 4:35

Oh, oh no, no, no, not even a little bit.

SPEAKER_04: 4:39

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

I'm still not prepared.

SPEAKER_04: 4:42

Right. I still feel like that too. I still feel like that too at 38, especially during a pandemic. No one's prepared.

SPEAKER_01: 4:48

Oh, yeah, decades later, and I'm still like, God, why does this keep happening?

SPEAKER_04: 4:53

Right, right. Sometimes I feel like I just want to tell my kids, you know what, don't worry about it. It's all gonna get worse.

SPEAKER_02: 5:00

Yeah, yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_04: 5:03

But I know that's not entirely true. Life teaches us a lot, and it's taught you a lot. So you're 15 and you're taking care of yourself now. So then what happens?

SPEAKER_01: 5:14

Oh, God. Okay, well, I'll give you a little pre, like an excerpt as to what led up to that. So most kids who grow up in the foster care system, even after adoption, you know, their resources are limited. They're they've been, you know, excommunicated from their families. They they don't have any of those sort of like aunts and uncles and you know, people that they can turn to, and and you know, all of a sudden we find ourselves no longer in the care of the government, and and we know what the government bureaucracy is like. They're just like, oh, you're this age, we're done with you. Sorry, have a nice day, no more communication.

SPEAKER_04: 5:47

So, like right, lack of funding or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 5:50

Absolutely, even just support in general. Like, there's there's no information. So, you know, I'm 15 years old and and my grades are everything to me. Um so growing up having limited social interaction with other people, I was sort of this arrogant, know it all teenager, like you know, like many teenagers are. But I think yeah, I like normal, but to maybe to an excessive extent. So, you know, someone would say something silly to me, like something, you know, that might not make sense or you know, might not be based in fact that I would consider to be common knowledge, and I would just be so facetious with them. I, you know, these people would say something and I would just turn around and be like, Good lord, you should just kill yourself. Like you're you're so dumb, you should just kill yourself. Get away from me right now. So I grew up alienating myself from people around me because I had this superiority complex. Because, you know, it truth be told, I was a fairly intelligent young person. Um, and my grades reflected that. So I worked very, very hard at school. Um, but I did not have the uh, you know, the financial resources or the understanding of, you know, the greater understanding of how life worked. So I had no idea, you know, what what getting a job was gonna be like, what supporting myself was gonna be like.

SPEAKER_04: 7:09

You know, I'm thinking Well, yeah, and you're practically still going through puberty at that time.

SPEAKER_01: 7:13

Yeah, exactly. And also at that time, I think minimum wage was like seven dollars and fifty cents an hour. So, you know, I'm sitting there on my on my calculator going, okay, so if I work exactly this many hours, I will make this much money. If rent costs about this much, I'm trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04: 7:28

Yeah, and you're thinking, oh, that'll be enough.

SPEAKER_01: 7:30

Yeah, it all seems totally feasible, and it's absolutely not like not even a little bit.

SPEAKER_04: 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:36

So uh my my dad, who was in his 60s, my adoptive dad, I should do I should specify that. My adoptive father, he was in his 60s when we were adopted and getting pretty close to his 70s when I left. I wasn't there for an incredibly long period of time, though it was it it felt like it, it was quite a few years. He had a problem with using verbal violence to kind of confer to you that that you know you couldn't step outside of his boundary. He wasn't a big man, he was, you know, he maybe came up to my shoulder and he was just a pot bellied little French dude. And you know, he had broken his back uh in a work injury as a heavy duty mechanic many, many like years, like decades before I was even born. So he was partially crippled. But the guy would not hesitate to pick you up and put a hole in his own drywall with your head if you know you were going outside of his norms, you know, and it was very rare for him to be physically violent like that, though on occasion it did happen.

SPEAKER_04: 8:42

The last time it was enough to know that it did happen that it was going to happen. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 8:47

And like he would threaten it more than it would happen, and like, you know, you would just know that he could get to that level of violence just with his actions, you know. You didn't you didn't even have you didn't have to do it, you just you just knew that if you stepped out of line, you know, you you're getting you're getting something not so nice. Right. So the last time we ever really spoke, my my adoptive sister, who was pretty new to the family, and she had some like serious trauma as far as like sexual abuse went, and you know, being in a very Roman Catholic family, like you know, also with your story, like they just they thought that counselors were just absolute quacks. They were just like, you don't need a counselor, counselors are stupid, and mental health is a myth. Um you don't you don't need any of those things. So she had these problems uh with sexuality, and now all of a sudden she's in a house full of uh you know legally related but blood unrelated teenage to adult men. And you know, this was this was exciting for her. She was like, oh, all these boys around, and you know, she behaved very inappropriately, and none of us ever behaved inappropriately with her, but you know, she would make these comments and write these stories about us and and you know in her journal, and some of them were just like absolutely profane and in the in the hands of the wrong person, even though because she was just pubescent at the time, you know, the the ridiculousness of it because of her lack of experience, no regular adult would have believed the things that she was saying because they just didn't happen in real life.

SPEAKER_04: 10:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

You know, had they fallen into the the hands of of someone, you know, in the school system or another parent, I mean, there could have been real issues. So my parents were really hard on her, but they would just, you know, like call her a slut and tell her that you know she needs to go into her room and and you know make right with God. And oh, yeah, it was just brutal. But one day she came downstairs to tell me that dinner was ready and uh I was on my computer in my room and she just busted into my room and she's just trying to dinner's ready. And uh I was like, Oh, yeah, okay, okay, I'll uh you know, just give me a minute and hey, can you you know can you knock next time? You know, I'm a teenage boy. What do you think? Like, I'm on my computer. You know, my parents had software installed on my computer so that they could see everything that I touched and typed. But uh, you know, she went upstairs, she was all mad that I, you know, had been upset with her. And and I don't recall being angry, but you know, she went upstairs and she told my adoptive mother that I had called her a fucking slut and a fat bitch and all these just like really terrible things. And I was just downstairs on my computer. I think I was playing Minecraft, probably. And so my dad comes downstairs and he he comes into my room, he like busts my door open, he grabs me by the back of my shirt, he picks me up, and he's just what did you say to your sister? And he's just freaking out, and he picks me up right off the ground and he starts hitting me into the wall. And it didn't it didn't really hurt because you know he's older and and you know, like it was like it was you could see his face was like so sweaty and red, like he could just like barely hold me up.

SPEAKER_04: 11:52

And uh try not to have a heart attack while exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

And so at you know, at 15 I I realized that you know that I'm bigger than you and you can't do this to me anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 12:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:04

So I grabbed him by the front of his shirt and I picked him up right off the ground. And now this is this is the thing that I think I feel the most guilt about in my entire life because he was already crippled, but I picked him up right off the ground and I slammed him into the hardwood floor on his back so hard I actually rebroke it. And uh, so he had to have a couple surgeries, but uh I had I had managed to get in contact with my biological dad uh you know around that time, and um, so I was dating this girl locally, and and so I called her and I said, Hey, listen, can you get somebody to come give me a ride? I need out of here, like right now, like in in five minutes. And this is pretty you know, like seven, eight o'clock at night.

SPEAKER_04: 12:47

Yeah, it's kind of an emergency.

SPEAKER_01: 12:49

Yeah, absolutely. But in the in the in the process of this struggle, my dad had actually broken my ribs, he uh punched me in the ribs a couple of times. And so she had gotten her neighbor to drive all the way up to my house. And I lived in like the most rural part of my area, like you know, way, way in the back. And uh, so he drove out to my house and he he picked me up with her. And uh, I had to lay down across the back seat, and I'm like, I'm clutching my side, and he's like, You need to go see a doctor, you okay? You gotta go to the hospital. I'm like, No, I'm fine. Yeah, and and I get to my girlfriend's house, and she takes a look, and like I'm purple from my uh from my hip to my armpit. Yeah, she's you know, it was bad, but I I never ended up going to the doctor. I I just have this thing about doctors, I don't know why, but uh that that's how I ended up on my own. And so I had like completely excommunicated myself from my family by doing this thing that I had done and choosing to leave. And and so you know, all of a sudden I was cut off from from you know, not only my brothers, but you know, my the family that I knew, the little resources that I did have.

SPEAKER_04: 13:54

The family you did have.

SPEAKER_01: 13:56

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so I I ended up continuing to go to school while I'm living at this at my girlfriend's house and um working a part-time job at nighttime, and I still like my my only goal was like I just gotta graduate. Like nothing else matters. I just have to make sure I get that GED so that I can get a good job. University's off the plate now, I've got no support. And yeah, you know, my teachers were not like my last block of the day. I would have a you know, an English teacher who'd say to me, You can't leave early. I'm like, it's 15 minutes, I gotta get on a bus to get to work. And she goes, I don't care. You can't leave. I'm gonna, you know, like I'm gonna dock marks off of you for attending issues. I'm like, Yeah, you're gonna fail me for trying to support myself. And she's just like, Yeah, sorry about your luck, man. And I'm like, oh man, like it was just brutal.

SPEAKER_04: 14:42

And yeah, I think some people don't get that. You're out there, you're trying to survive, and there's all these little roadblocks.

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04: 14:50

We're gonna fail you, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:54

These teachers, they just like they can't even imagine a world where a 15-year-old is, you know, completely on their own. You know, they they have all these resources and things that they know about, and you know, they obviously aren't gonna share them with you because you're not asking, but you know, they can't they can't imagine the world where no, exactly. Yeah, and I didn't know any of these resources were available to me at the time, my life would have been a lot different if I had. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 15:17

The number one you're you're expecting your parents to take care of you, right?

SPEAKER_01: 15:21

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 15:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:23

And the number one resource was that like kids in foster care, and if any kids or people who have, you know, uh aged out of the foster care system in Canada don't know this. But if you're under the age of 27, your education is completely and utterly free for post-secondary tuition. They just cover it. No questions asked, you fill out a piece of paper, they send it to the school you've applied to, no tuition, it's gone. You just have to cover your cost of living and your books. So anybody out there who needs that resource, it's called the BC tuition waiver, and you can better your life. High school did not have to be the stopping point for you.

SPEAKER_04: 16:00

Good information. Yes. No, that's gonna help a lot of people. Yeah, totally like listeners just go back, you know, maybe like 30 seconds and like listen to it again. That's good information. Thank you for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_02: 16:15

Of course.

SPEAKER_04: 16:16

So so you're you know, you're so you're 15, you're trying to do this. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to see where the story's going here because I don't, I mean, this is a lot of stuff that's happened to you. You're you're you're you're 15 and you're just trying to graduate high school, you're trying to survive, and you're not really, you know, what about your feelings at this time? You probably didn't even have time to think about them, did you?

SPEAKER_00: 16:46

If you are experiencing estrangement from a family member and would like to be a guest, please email us at wtvb podcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01: 16:58

Not really, but I will disclose this just for the fun of it. Okay. Um so I I have a condition called type 2 bipolar disorder. And so type 2 bipolar disorder is called a rapid rapid cycling bipolar. So that doesn't mean that it happens every day or every minute. Medically, it just means that it happens more than four times a year. So you have these sort of manic episodes and depressive episodes. But the the really fun thing, and and so bipolar disorder is is less common in teenagers, and it's usually more prelevant in young people when a parent has it and that those children go through some, you know, some fairly severe trauma. Trigger those developmental genes, right and that change in the brain. So when you are going through puberty and the hormone imbalance in your brain is just out of control on a good day, and then you drop bipolar disorder on top of it, it is the most destructive force that ever existed. Like Hurricane Katrina has nothing on my emotions. I destroyed my own life over and over and over again just for the sake of quenching this anxiety that was like being struck by a bolt of lightning at any given moment. So bipolar disorder is really funny. You know, your girlfriend breaks up with you, you're sad. It's it's kind of the end of the world, you know. Sometimes it can be a really big deal, um, especially when we're teenagers. I mean, I know most of us can barely remember it, but for me, it was like someone literally stuck a lightning rod in the side of my stomach and hooked it up to BC Hydro's power dam and was just shocking me every minute of every day. And the only way that I could figure out how to deal with these, like these feelings that were so intense and overwhelming, like I like having a heart attack at any given moment, was yeah, that there was no real behavior or no solution to make them go away. I had no resources, I had no way to like, you know, calm myself, no, no sort of mindfulness to be able to keep control. So my only solution was just to act like a psychopath, you know, just yeah, making decisions that not only didn't make sense to to me, but the people around me, especially. And and even before I left my home, you know, my parents would say things like, you know, why did you do that? And I'd say, I don't know. And they would say something along the lines of, I don't know isn't a reason. And for all of us who have heard this, I am telling you now, I don't know is 100% a valid reason. And anybody who tells you otherwise is absolutely dead wrong. I don't know is a valid reason. Yeah. So, you know, dealing with these huge emotions and this anxiety, and and and not just the anxiety, because you know, we all remember those special times in our life. You know, you go outside and it's a beautiful morning, and it's kind of the atmosphere is really perfect, and you can kind of smell. know say fall on the air and and it's just those moments that we want to hold on to and remember because they're just gorgeous. Well I I was having those like 16 times a day. You know, so I I'm trying to hold on to all these beautiful things and moments and like sometimes I'm so happy that I couldn't stand it and other times I'm so sad that I you know I just want to kill myself and and and not just with happy and sad like when it comes to things like jealousy oh Lord when I was jealous like like no no nothing like a woman's scorn you should see me when I'm jealous it it's just uncontrollable behavior.

SPEAKER_04: 20:38

So what were some of the other sorry I didn't mean to like interrupt but like what were some of the feelings if you could label them you know at 15 I mean these are big things. I mean I remember being 15 yeah the littlest crush is like a big huge I mean it feels really really really really big.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

And so you know I know what feeling like thinking that you're in love when you're 15 but when you're feeling like abandoned yes like can you talk a little bit about what you were feeling at that time oh I was angry yeah I was such an angry angry person and uh I was angry about everything but at the time when it happened I didn't feel so much angry about abandonment because I was so used to this this type of of thing happening in my life that it didn't feel like abandonment. It felt like my choice like it was my decision to you know call these people to come rescue me and to you know yeah finally have enough with my dad so that wasn't so much the abandonment issue. The abandonment issue came from from you know like my my brothers writing me off because I you know I didn't fit into the bubble of this upper middle class lifestyle that my adoptive parents were trying to provide for me. You know they thought I was an idiot and couldn't understand why I couldn't just you know conform to them. So like I lost my brothers and then you know I would come across them every couple of years and I haven't spoken to them any of them in over a decade. But you know I'll see them every once in a while doing their thing and and you know they look at me and I look at them and we're strangers. We don't know each other. So at that time I was pretty crushed with the loss of like my direct family you know and I was also pretty crushed with losing something that had become not a stable home but a home where stability could be had because I was there every day. A routine home.

SPEAKER_04: 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:38

So that loss was was a big deal.

SPEAKER_04: 22:41

So you know we were talking about that a a little bit you know the other day and you had mentioned something to me that you know your parents you so you were saying you were in foster care but I don't I don't remember you exactly telling me what happened with your parents and how you ended up in foster care. We don't have to you know go too deep into that story but you know there is a point to my question because I was curious. But first of all what happened with your parents when was the last time you saw your parents did you know where they were when your new parent when your adopted parents took you in what's kind of that whole dynamic there.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

Okay. So there are a couple of legal issues in regards to the discussion of this with the with the ministry um so there is a there's a very large ongoing um trial in in in kind of uh regards to to what happened with me and my brothers and about a hundred other kids um involved in the Vancouver Island uh ministries care but uh I can generalize I just can't give out any names so basically when when I was about I don't know I think I was probably about two and a half years old my parents who were very very young decided to go to the ministry to ask for respite care. So my mom I believe was 19 years old when she had my two older twin brothers and she was pregnant before she met my dad and she had just found out or she wasn't quite sure but she thought she might be pregnant. So she went and she found my dad and uh I believe they had been friends previous but not close. And uh so she hooked up with him and then a couple of days later said Real I'm pregnant you got to take care of me. So she had you know essentially trapped him into a relationship that the children weren't even his. Right. So my brothers were born my my mom suffers from a couple of conditions but the only two that I know of is um bipolar disorder and some type of schizophrenia. So she's a bipolar schizophrenic and she also really enjoys drugs or she did at the time and so as we all know with bipolar disorder and drugs they don't mix. And drugs are bad in general but when you take a bipolar person and and and give them cocaine you're in for a world of trouble. So this you know 19 20 year old woman she's got two kids she's alone she has you know severe mental illness and the children are sick. So both of my brothers had really bad gastrointestinal conditions they were lactose intolerant and nobody knew so they were just crying screaming they you know like purple crying they just would not stop 24 hours a day my mom's losing it she gets pregnant with me and then you know and they had decided they said you know we're gonna have this this one we're gonna make this one intentionally so they made me and uh so I suddenly was this perfect creation of theirs in every way like I couldn't I couldn't I guess do anything wrong and um you know I was just this angelic figure in their life whereas the twins were were were sort of a nightmare to them. So my parents tried really hard to bond with me and both of them kind of severely neglected my two brothers. So there was a time period when um they asked for the ministry for some assistance with maybe getting some respite because a ministry worker had offered like hey listen you can put your kids in respite for a short period of time if you guys need you know some social assistance or whatever some help some time to get yourself in a place to be better parents and we walked in the door they walked in the door we were dropped off and we were never allowed out again so we went into foster care and we're gone immediately wow so my parents they they fought really hard to try and get us back when when we were young and and for the longest time I I just only really knew their side of the narrative I didn't understand that there were you know like multiple reports of you know my parents having left my brother in my brothers in their diapers for like days at a time there was starvation issues like malnutrition there's there was just extreme neglect um but I'm much too young to remember and I don't believe any of that ever happened directly to me. So we were put in into the foster care system and we were moved around a lot just to make sure that my parents didn't know where we were because the island communities are very small and a lot of people know a lot of people so it was pretty easy to find someone that you were looking for. So we were moved from town to town district to district we lived in Cinnabar Valley in Nanaimo all over the place and and we ended up with this this social care worker who you know she was older she seemed very very lovely um and she dropped us off with um an older family who was going to be fostering us and uh they ended up fostering us for quite a few years but they they didn't really do a great job so one we were left alone almost all of the time with no supervision. Oh god the other thing was that we had regular visitors over to the house who were sort of there to um to enjoy us as children so not so much fun and I don't want to go into a whole lot of detail on that. Right right there that's a nice yeah yeah there there was some things going on there and so what I found out later through um a little bit of connection through this court case was that this social worker had been creating false reports about checkups on these kids so saying that the checkups had been done everything looked healthy things were going normally they were getting their education and so the foster parents were actually paying her to do this and so you know I don't know a whole lot about how this system works but from my understanding is that our paperwork was pushed to the side and we were never checked up on other than by her while we were in this just just absolutely extreme situation. But the thing is we didn't know it was extreme at the time because we were so young. Sure you were kids you couldn't have known yes yeah we had no idea we were presented with this reality and we accepted it. So right you know when this woman would come over all of a sudden all the toys from the high shelf that we could never reach were on the floor and we were put in in normal clothing and you know allowed to run around and play with these toys and you know she would come over and you know see that things were pretty normal as far as normal could be for you know their arrangement. And then the moment she walked out the door those toys were you know they were packed up into a box and put onto a onto a really high shelf um you know in the hallway and locked away so that we couldn't get our hands on them just to show like a symbol of normality and and we didn't understand it was just like oh it's time to play with toys like you know this is great we never get this. Yeah or we get to play with toys while mom has a visit so we don't bother anyone yes you know like yeah yeah yeah no I get that yeah and when any of my and they had children of their own so when any of my foster brothers had friends over if there were any other adults in the house you know life was like it it was like a you know a cr like a Christmas miracle movie it was just it was wonderful for the period of time that they were there until they were gone. And then after they were gone it was like it was worse because they had had to treat us so well. Like if if I went upstairs and said hey like listen I'm hungry and they would go oh yeah yeah we'll make you a snack like here you know we got some chef boy RD for you or whatever and I would you know I would eat that and and and be stoked and you know I'm like I'm still hungry I haven't eaten since yesterday and if I said something like that in front of their guests they you know they were such good liars they you know they would say like oh you know kids imaginations he's so silly right you know how picky kids can be absolutely yeah yeah you were listening to When the Bell Breaks with your host Alexis Erlen so we were put into a building called the Extension School which is located in Cinnabar Valley and um it actually got torn down this year which is really neat I I actually after we had our little chat I went to try and find where this school was um it's called the Extension School of Cinnabar Valley and it uh it it was closed in 2001 which was probably the last year that I went there maybe a little bit sooner but uh when Cinnabar Valley Elementary School opened up but um for the majority of the time that I lived there we actually didn't attend school we weren't allowed to leave the house and the time periods that we did leave school you know we were sometimes sent home because we smelled bad or we didn't have food with us and and for whatever reason our educators didn't take notice they you know there was no red flags there was like they're like oh these you know these dirty poor foster kids are showing up to school with with like old clothes and they they reek and they don't have any food like you know you'd think you'd call somebody right but they didn't they didn't have the foresight to do that. So we would just be sent home and after a while they just said we were being homeschooled and they just left us at home. Wow yeah so it was it was not good and we didn't know what anything was like I had never seen a television before like I don't really recall having seen a television up close or in person until I was probably about eight or nine years old. I didn't I didn't understand it or or know what it was. So like the first time I saw a television I was just like oh my god there's there's somebody in the box like how do I get them out you know they're like it it was just magic to me.

SPEAKER_04: 32:48

Uh wow so so you weren't allowed to like go to school anymore. Yeah so and you have no television no and no food. What did you do all day?

SPEAKER_01: 32:59

Well that's the thing we just played we just we were let loose outside um Cinnabar Valley is a really small community and you know we would we would go find the neighbor kids and and you know go you know yeah yeah light you start to see who has snacks laying around yeah yeah hey what are you having for snack or yeah you start to kind of like see what you can get elsewhere and escape your reality for a little bit yes and also a lot of the times we were locked out so like there was no option to oh geez to go back inside because they didn't they didn't want us there especially if they were gonna have guests over and it was the middle of the day it was like just go play outside and you know we didn't have any toys you know I remember really you knew that you weren't unwanted at that age or was that something you had discovered when you were older I I don't know if I had I I know it now but I I don't know if I had the concept at the time it was just like this is a normal Tuesday. Exactly yeah yeah so I had no idea they were just like you're outside to play and we're locking the door and I'm like oh but I don't want to be outside and they're like cuff kitty. Yeah but you know like I remember there was a winter where I I they locked us in our rooms a lot of the time too depending on what was going on and I I remember that I had been locked in my room for like some time I I it was so long ago that my idea of time it might have been like you know only a few hours but it it also may have been days but I had to pee so bad like it it hurt and I just I had to pee and there was no way to get out of my room there was no window there was there was not I couldn't get out so I I ended up having to pee on the floor in the corner and uh when they found out that I had done this they actually they tossed me outside and uh it was pretty cold there wasn't any snow on the ground but it was it was I think it may have been snowing and so I was thrown outside in just I I think they were like my morning pajamas or whatever like they were like boxer shorts right and and a t-shirt and I had no shoes on and I remember I had to I I was trying to find somewhere to go and uh so I'm uh I'm walking down this this the street in Cinnabar Valley it's it's a long hill and uh the pavement is so cold it's burning my feet and I can't walk and uh it hurts and I and I need to find something to put on my feet because it's so cold and uh somebody had an an industrial like uh bin in their in their driveway like a like a cardboard bin yeah and so I ended up um crawling inside of this bin to try and get out of the cold and uh I don't know how long I was in there um but somebody somebody saw me one of the neighbors saw me and I you know I don't know what they thought of this you know like half naked half naked you know six year old trying to crawl into a dumpster like I I think I almost fell trying to get into it because like trying to step up into a dumpster even as an adult is a is a pretty harrowing task. Yeah they're tall yeah so anyways I got inside this thing and I'm like and I'm hiding in here and and some time went by and I was I was I was getting dizzy and I I think I was trying to go to sleep and somebody pulled me out and uh it was the owner of the house came and and pulled me out of this building or out of this out of this thing and took me to their house. And uh and it was an old man and he and he sat with me for a while and and you know ended up taking me back to my house. And of course my foster parents when he knocked on the door they were like oh my gosh there he is like he got out of the house we don't like we've been looking for him you know thank you so much for bringing him back and uh you know like that was that was the first time I really noticed the inconsistency in in what it was you know what what was going on and uh you know ever since then that I you know I used to even in the summer I'd I'd go walking down and I'd see him and I would I would stop and he was always so nice to me and uh he used to let me pick plums off his off his tree in his front yard and yeah and he was just I remember him and I I think he might be gone now because he was pretty old then but uh do you remember his name no I don't think I knew it yeah but uh yeah it was it was so long ago but yeah it was it was tough and then you know we had a neighbor directly across from us who had a son with some mental illness um I'm not sure like he was he was disabled like fully disabled it may have been um uh Down syndrome there was you know it was very clear in his face I remember his face and um so he used to play with us and I know he was much much older than we were but I think mentally he was around the same age and uh so this is probably in the in the summertime I think and uh he ended up getting me alone and uh you know pinning me down and and just you know taking his taking his time about the thing but I I just I remember the noise that he used to make because of his disability like I could hear it in my ear it was just this this this just horrible grunting sound it just it kills me and so like my my my ex-wife she just she hates that I can't stand to be around people with severe disability and it's not because I don't like them or think that they're wonderful people but I just yeah I I can't even look at their face without you know just being triggered just trick triggered just destroyed right like they just they they make me feel vile and not because they're bad people or like I have anything against them. I think most of them any of the ones that I have met and interacted with they're absolutely lovely sweethearts but yeah you know this this boy was like crazy strong and I just I couldn't get away yeah and so I went home after and uh I tried to tell my foster parents what had happened. Yeah. And so they actually called his parents and you know here I'm thinking like you know somebody's gonna finally do something. And so what they did was they actually they brought him over to my house and I was having a bath because I was I was all dirty and I'm sitting in the bathtub and they bring him into the bathroom where I'm just I'm sitting naked and exposed and they tell me to apologize to him because I I had somehow insinuated the circumstances. I had somehow, you know, this boy obviously was not able to make these decisions on his own. And I had, you know, you know, coaxed their child into you know, into performing something that he did not want to, and that, you know, I had somehow damaged this boy. Um and they yeah, they made me, they made me apologize to him. So it you know, it was it wasn't good.

SPEAKER_04: 40:24

Yeah. I mean, I'm sitting over here looking for my box of tissues. I feel like for me the worst kind of traumas weren't measurable by the actual act of what happened. I feel like the worst parts of my my personal trauma were those times when I asked for help and not only was denied, but also further exposed and then made to feel like it was my fault.

SPEAKER_01: 41:01

Yes. Yeah, there's something to be said about the saying screaming for help. When you say screaming for help, it's a very emotional thing.

SPEAKER_04: 41:11

Yeah. I get that. Um so as an adult, I'm assuming you know, you graduated college or high school to start.

SPEAKER_02: 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 41:27

And then you went on to study and study and study and study where you know, much of your personal time. And so I obviously we can just say easily that that affected you majorly, like negatively.

SPEAKER_01: 41:45

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 41:48

But as an adult now, obviously it's still difficult to talk about those things always are. And I really appreciate your vulnerability and sharing those things because even though they're hard to listen to, it you know, it puts things into perspective and context, and we understand these feelings. I think.

SPEAKER_02: 42:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 42:11

And so it's important. So I just wanted to say thank you for that, first of all. But, you know, how did you deal with this? All of this, having, you know, your parents having not been able to care for you anymore for one reason or another, going through all of that, seeing neglect and abuse, seeing it done to other people and having it done to you, not, you know, all thinking that it was normal, and then one day realizing that it's not, and then you have all of these feelings coming up again, and you're identifying, you know, going through your trauma. What was that like? So, you know, did you ever go to counseling for any of this stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 42:52

I know we already kind of talked about this, but you know, for our listeners' sake, yes, I did end up going to counseling for a number of years, um, which is what exposed me to counseling and psychotherapy, which is why I wanted more do what I do. Right. So I saw a lot of counselors. It was mandated that we see some counselors when we were first adopted, though it was a big hassle for my adoptive parents to have to deal with taking us. You know, we lived quite a ways out of the way, so them having to drive us was a big deal. And then the fact that they just didn't believe in it, um, you know, though it was mandated by the ministry over here that you know we see uh certain certain counselors. Um so you know, the first time I saw a counselor, my adoptive mom came in and it was a woman, and she was wonderful, she's absolutely wonderful, and she worked for the uh the mission um like the mission mental health unit in downtown Mission. She was just just a wonderful lady. And so I had, you know, I'd been with my adoptive parents for quite a bit of time at this point, and things weren't so good. But so when my mom came in to, you know, to you know, she came in for the first counseling session, and uh she told my counselor, like, listen, you gotta be really careful with this one. He doesn't have any respect for women, and you know, like he'll he'll just charm you right off your feet. Um so you know, she was purposely setting up a dialogue with my with my counselor, who was, I believe, a counselor in training. So she had someone else there in the room every once in a while, also doing her counseling hours to get to get certified. So she was very, very new to counseling. She had very little experience, but she she saw through my mom before my mom opened her mouth.

SPEAKER_04: 44:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:40

So when my mom left that counseling session about halfway through, she the first thing she said is, Are you okay and do you need help? And I said, I'm I'm okay, and I don't think I need help, except maybe to do these counseling sessions.

SPEAKER_04: 44:57

Yeah, yeah. Like I think I can handle this with some support.

SPEAKER_01: 45:02

Yes, you know, yeah. We we ended up having quite a great therapeutic relationship for about a year, and then I believe she actually had to refer me on because she was moving into a different part of her study and becoming a different kind of counselor. Um, so you know, I I I went to counseling for quite a few years as an adult, but surprisingly, most of the work that was done to kind of get over these traumas was actually just living life. It it was outside of the counseling therapy room. But the counseling did play a very major role in my ability to stop, you know, consider how I was feeling, what was actually causing it, um, and you know, be able to not react so emotionally to things. That was the biggest thing I ever took out of counseling.

SPEAKER_04: 45:46

Yeah, yeah. You want to withdraw and you want to just, you know, you you think, oh, I can just barely manage my feelings. So I'm just gonna stay home, you know, like I'm not gonna interact with anybody. But really, it's like once you get out there and apply, like take what you've learned and what these experiences have taught you and everything that you've been able to kind of work at in counseling and therapy, when you do go out there and start doing things, yeah, it's really, really scary. And it doesn't matter like how long ago all this was, sometimes I still feel like I want to withdraw. But you know, if that if I if I feel myself going back into withdrawing, like I I call in somebody, I schedule myself something to do because I know that it's not practical to get there. And you know, even though it feels comfortable, you know, you know, in the moment it's it's not practical and it's hard work. Um to uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:44

Yeah, you you end up being presented with this mountain of of things that you have to work through. Uh-huh. And it just it seems so big that that just even taking on the task itself is so exhausting. Just thinking about taking on the task is so exhausting that most people choose not to. That's why people get stuck.

SPEAKER_04: 47:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 47:03

So that's why counseling is such a positive thing.

SPEAKER_04: 47:06

Yes. And so I'm gonna like, you know, kind of like flip things around a little bit, you know, hearing, you know, your background and stuff like that, it's it's so interesting. And and now it kind of brings me back to what we were talking about in our chat the other day, is you know, why is it, why do you want to be on this show? What has estrangement taught you? What have you learned? What have you have how have you uh conducted your life around this sort of long-term ongoing estrangement that seems to occur with not just your parents, not just your siblings, but all these other people who were supposed to take care of you? What have you learned and what do you want to share with the people who are listening to these episodes?

SPEAKER_01: 47:53

Well, it's kind of a it's kind of a big question. It's kind of a lot. It is a lot. If I were to pack it down into one thing, is that no matter how long you feel like something is going to last or how painful it's going to be and how impermanent it actually is, it's gonna end and it will be over. And things may not necessarily be better, but they will be different. And this pain that you're feeling now is really truly and honestly as temporary as you are willing to put in the work to make it. So when you're suffering, you know, it's like, you know, I I used to have a real problem with drinking, and now I don't drink at all. I have been sober for quite a few years now. Um but you would notice, thank you, when you when you when you get too drunk, you feel sick and you just you want it to be over. That you know, you're throwing up the room spinning, and you just you're like, this ruined my night, and I just want to go to bed, but I can't close my eyes because I'm spinning every time I do, and it's just gonna make me puke again. And you just you want it to be over. And so you just keep telling yourself, you know, it's gonna be over soon. Like it this is gonna pass. I'm gonna, you know, it's it's gonna be gone when I wake up in the morning. I just have to make it through right now. And trauma is kind of like being drunk in that way. It's it's it's only temporary, and traumas can last your entire lifetime, they can last 20, 30 years. But only as as long as you're willing to not put in the work will those things define you. Right, right. When you can when you can find a support system, and that's the hardest step, is is because this feels so heavy and like it's gonna last so long and be so permanent that without a support system, you're gonna you're gonna be this person forever, and you can't ever change. And you're always gonna hate when people touch you, and you're always gonna hate the sound uh you know that a that a mentally disabled person makes when they cry out, you know, and then all of a sudden you find your support system, or your support system finds you, and you don't have a choice in the matter. And you you you know, you can because that happens sometimes. People see what's going on and they're like, hey man, we're gonna help you and you're gonna shut up about it. Um, you get these support systems and you, you know, you you you take on that monumental, exhausting task of just one day at a time getting a little bit better, even if it takes the rest of your life, it's temporary.

SPEAKER_03: 50:41

Thank you for listening to When the Bow Breaks. As always, please remember to like, follow, and share. Links in this week's show notes.

SPEAKER_04: 50:53

I started to learn that that things will change, things do evolve, yes, and you know, even though it's limited, I do have, you know, a certain level of control and responsibility. You know, there's some wiggle broom. I can choose how I respond to things.

SPEAKER_01: 51:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 51:16

I can choose to be a better listener, I can choose to ask for help.

unknown: 51:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 51:22

Uh, you know, so there, you know, there are things that I can do, but I do take comfort in knowing that yes, this situation is not going to last forever. It's going to change. It's like I I tell myself, you know, I'm finding my, you know, I'm telling my kids that, you know, this whole pandemic, it's not going to last forever. It's going to change. You know, I'm I'm tired of people saying, yeah, I know, I'm tired of people saying, oh, it couldn't get worse, it couldn't get worse. It's like, let's start saying something different. Let's start saying, like, it's going to get better.

SPEAKER_01: 51:54

It's going to change. Yeah. It doesn't even have to get better necessarily. It's just going to be different.

SPEAKER_04: 51:59

But it's going to change. It is. And, you know, it's true.

SPEAKER_01: 52:04

Yeah, absolutely. All those people in your life who said when you were young, well, don't worry, it gets better when you get older. No, no. They're lying to you and they're lying to themselves. It didn't get better.

SPEAKER_04: 52:13

But things will change.

SPEAKER_01: 52:15

Yes, it didn't get better. You just got way better at dealing with it. So it doesn't affect you the same way. You learned the tools to take care of yourself that weren't available to you when you were a rowdy teenager. Like that they're just, it's better in a sense. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 52:33

So as an adult dealing with estrangement, have you found any resources or links or books that you kind of go back to that kind of helped you, you know, whether it's directly or indirectly related to estrangement, I whatever, if it's related to your story in general, you know, um, you already shared with us uh one resource, you know, about the uh, you know, free education. Uh, if you're yeah, um, that was great. Do you have anything else that you want to share that our listeners can go back to and check out?

SPEAKER_01: 53:05

Yeah, absolutely. So because I'm studying psychotherapy and uh psychology, um, which has been the you know one of the biggest helpers in my life is instead of being in a counseling office, becoming a counselor helps you change as a person. Um there are a few things that I know to be true with not only people who've been estranged, but you know, people who've grown up in foster care, people who've grown up in normal, quote, air quote, normal households that are are dealing with mental illness. There are some resources that are available to you that you might feel are you know like a failure if you have to call them or or or talk to a counselor, and you're not a failure. You are not a failure when you reach out for help. You are right, you you are as strong as you could be when you reach out to some of these resources and say, hey, listen, I'm not doing so good. I need some help. Because you know, that's that's not a sign of weakness. So if there's anyone out there who's dealing with, you know, depression, suicidal thoughts, any mental health crisis at all that you know needs immediate attention, I I would absolutely encourage you to call the Suicide Hotline of British Columbia or Canada, which is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and that's 1-800 suicide. So that's gonna be 1-800-784-2433. And those people, they they're not counselors, but they want to talk to you, just like I want to talk to you. We want to make sure that you're okay. These people are here to support you and give you the resources that they have on hand to get you the help that you need in the area that you're living in. And then also, if you need to talk to a counselor, you know, something a little bit more in depth, maybe just to work on something quickly. Um, there are free counselors available, again, pretty much 24 hours a day. But unfortunately, they have a specific cutoff age and it's 25 years old. So a youth in Canada is considered to be 25 or under. So if you are 25 and under and struggling with some mental health issues and you need to speak with a counselor, you absolutely can talk to the kids' helpline, which is different than the suicide awareness, suicide prevention line. And that's 1-800-668-6868. And you know, it's not just for kids, even though they named it that, you know, very vicariously, like it's for 25 and under. So if you're a young adult and you're having some issues, please call the kids helpline. They would love to talk to you. And then also, we have like a couple of other resources. If you don't have access to a phone to call somebody, if you have access to the internet, you can actually go directly to youthinbc.com, and they have a ton of resources that will connect you directly with somebody who is, you know, able to maybe help you through a crisis. And then also mindcheck.ca, which is a bc sanctioned website that's absolutely fantastic. They have counselors on hand, so that's just mindcheck.ca. Okay. And uh so and anybody who has experienced any severe sexual trauma or needs any resources as far as sexual education goes, you can actually go to www.scarlateen.com. That is one of the best educational resources on the planet. So as an as an educator or a parent, if you're uncertain on how you're going to approach your young, young teenagers, you know, on how to bring up these kinds of topics and make sure that your children are are you know engaging in in healthy behaviors that aren't going to be damaging to them as an adult. I would strongly recommend this resource because it has an education, like an educator section. It's phenomenal. And then it also has a section that you can just hand it to your kids and be like, listen, I'm uncomfortable talking to you about this, but I want you to have the resources. Here you go. So ScarlettTeen.com, just incredible. So those are the resources that I'm familiar with on a regular basis because I do a lot of work with youth. You know, I do have interactions with work through the Christian fellowship, stuff like that. I'm not a Christian, but they're a great resource to connect with youth who are sort of in crisis. So that's what I do with my spare time.

SPEAKER_04: 57:20

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, you know, who is Alexander now? What is he up to now? We talked about you know, a lot about what you went through and kind of what you learned, but how are you doing now? And like, what's your next move?

SPEAKER_01: 57:37

Well, that's the fun part, is that I have no idea. Um so I'm a father. I'm a very, very, very excited to be a father kind of father. I love my children, I love them more than I love my own life. I love them to a point where it's probably unhealthy, but I don't care because I love them. And uh so I'm a you know, I'm a full-time employee, a full-time student, and a single dad now just recently, because my wife has decided that she wants to, you know, maybe do something a little bit healthier for herself. Um so you know, the life looks pretty bleak as far as those things go. But from from my point of view, I'm excited. I don't know what's gonna happen. And and maybe that's just my change in outlook as I get older. But uh, you know, I've got this great educational opportunity, and and I'm gonna have this opportunity to, you know, help people who are in my circumstance who are you know screaming for help and and you know that just wasn't available to them. Maybe I I'll be able to make a difference for somebody with this experience that I have, and also for my children.

SPEAKER_04: 58:48

Like, I think you have. I think that when you were young and vulnerable and you know, exposed, it was very scary and you were delicate, but you know, and you had to grow and you know, learn how to grow in a very, very harsh, harsh environment, which has made you very, very strong. And I can definitely see see the contrast in how you responded to things then as you respond to things now. I mean, like you said, things look pretty bleak, but you have, but you're happy. You have a happy outlook and a healthy attitude towards, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen, but you know, hey, life is good and you know, it's changing and there's things to explore, there's things to learn. Um, you know, and I and I love the honesty and the authenticity about I don't really know. And that's okay because it's like there's so many things in the world, there's so many jobs to do, there's so many resources at your disposal, like you were saying. By the way, for our listeners, I I'm going to do some work after this episode uh closes up here to see if I can find the uh equivalent. uh or nearest equivalent to some of these suggestions uh in US link form as well um for our US listeners too. So I wanted to put that out just to make that a note for myself when I go back and listen to this episode. But uh anyway, I I've definitely seen your growth and I've definitely seen how you've changed and how um you know your the things that you've learned. I mean I don't know if I can ask this you know on the air but I mean how old are you? Because I think that's might put things into some perspective too.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:34

I am 27.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:36

My goodness see I've learned I've learned I mean some people would say I'm a baby. I mean I'm getting close to 40 here so you know it's starting to sting a little bit but um I know that there's still plenty more for me to learn and I want to thank thank you for coming on the show. I don't know if there is there anything else that you want to say or add uh that we kind of missed or you know we want to touch base on um we definitely want to see more of you uh and to our listeners we're gonna you you're gonna see more of him don't worry but before we close up this episode you know do you have anything else you kind of want to share sure so the examples that I give about my life as a very young person it's hard to keep in perspective from people who haven't experienced childhood trauma to understand that you know we as kids we didn't know that we were experiencing trauma we you know we didn't know that these things like sexual abuse for us was so common that it it just was like something that happened after breakfast like it's time to do your chores and now it's time to go lay down on the bathroom floor.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:43

You know there these were not unusual things for us. And then having to go to somebody as an adult and and you know you're looking at the perspective of these problems that people have as adults who now understand and may even be re-traumatized from a different perspective whereas like you know we're this is this is just this Tuesday it's Tuesday. This is the day that this happens like it's whatever I'm gonna go you know play with play with the kids after this like I'm gonna go find a stick to beat against some you know like you'll build a tree house somewhere yeah exactly it was not unusual. And so and we were in a community where this was rampant and full of of other children that this kind of activity was happening to with adults who were just as confused as we were as little children because they didn't either believe that it could be happening didn't want to believe it could be happening or just didn't care right if they just you know if it's a small community and you know these things may have even happened to them and and for them to just like completely turn a blind eye you have to keep an eye out for the people around you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:55

You have to look and and watch for those red flags because if you don't say something you can expect that no one else will right yeah and don't be afraid to be a little bit nosy too because like you said you know yeah absolutely they brushed you up polished you up brought took the toys down made you look normal for a few minutes I mean that's kind of what my life was like I felt like was like sometimes I felt like we looked nice when we were out in public and then when we were at home it was just not it was just the opposite you know and uh yeah nobody saw that there were people who did see glimpses of it and and still chose to do nothing you know and say nothing and that was damaging it's like you could have changed things for me you know a lot sooner.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:41

You could have you could have saved me. Yeah yeah and and so that's a perspective that we have to remember to keep out of our minds because it's coming from a place of want. It's like saying I don't have this thing I can't have this thing and so I'm less because of it. Try and I encourage you and your listeners as just as a as a sort of positive reinforcement to change the way that you think about these things that have happened to you or were because they're not you there's something that happened that you can't change.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:17

But they happened and you can't change them.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:21

Right. And real quick before before we go I wanted to touch base on something that we kind of chatted about the other day and I know AC, he's been here on standby for this episode um and he has a closing thought that he would like to share so I'm gonna give him you know a couple seconds head start uh or uh give myself just give him a couple seconds trying to word this properly here um we talked you talked about something we touched a little bit on talk therapy I wanted to hear what your what your opinion was about that and how we kind of compared that uh talk therapy to um explosive diarrhea.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:00

Yeah that's my favorite oh man so just to throw one of those shameless plugs out there um there is a really wonderful science podcast called umologies and it's a just a science communication podcast that just it sounds kind of boring for for nerdy people but it actually is like Bill Mye the science guy with uh an absolutely hilarious host and she makes learning about you know the the the the strangest things in science absolutely just like unbearably fan fascinating um so she's great and she runs some advertisements on her podcast now um where she didn't before but that was just to maintain fun so she could continue to be a to be a content creator and so she she talks with a talk therapist and I actually managed to get a hold of the same talk therapist just just to have a discussion with them through my you know just for educational reasons um because I'm looking into um you know what I want to do after I finish my education and uh so she explained to me that talk therapy which I always I always hated it I hated talk therapy it was just it was just such a silly thing like why would I just go talk to this person? They don't give me any resources they don't show me how to be a better person. There's no like you know watch my finger back and forth while I tap on you simply you know we talk about your trauma. There's nothing like that going on. Right. And so she kind of bundles talk therapy up into a fart which is great. I just I love it. Talk therapy is like if you've really got a fart and you hold it in it's just gonna rot inside of you. Right? It's just it's gonna be bad. And I like to I like to chalk it up to just bad diarrhea. So you got all this bad stuff inside of you and and you know you're in a relationship you're not communicating really well say with your partner or your friend or whoever you know you there's something happening and you hold it in and after a while it it makes you sick and all of a sudden that stuff's got to come out. Whether it comes out slowly and gently and you know in handle like you know cleanable chunks or if you have explosive diarrhea it's going up the walls it's hitting everyone in the vicinity everything that you touch is going to be covered in the shit that you've kept inside of you forever and it's gonna ruin you. So it actually turns out that the psychology behind talk therapy is just amazing. It's not for everybody. It's not for people with serious mental disabilities or illnesses. If you have schizophrenia you shouldn't go see a talk therapist or you should see a talk therapist in conjunction with a psychiatrist because they are going to help you and help medicate you and they are a doctor of psychiatry going to see a psychologist to talk about how you feel may not be super effective if you have some of these you know these lesser function disabilities or conditions mental mental conditions so you should not you know just rely on talk therapy. And if you're in talk therapy and it's not working for you because you have some some of these kinds of problems you probably should continue maybe that therapeutic relationship alongside another type of therapy so that that that was my favorite analogy was your your your personal stuff is like a fart or bad diarrhea and if you're gonna hold it in it's gonna be really messy and you should probably go buy some some some cleaner because it's it's it's gonna be a problem.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:34

Right. No I felt like that too I felt like uh you know nobody else could handle hearing my stuff like nobody wanted to hear it my family didn't want to hear it made everyone uncomfortable like you know nobody wants to be around when someone farts it's just like ew gross you know just go in the corner go in the bathroom you know wherever do your thing you know bring a friend if you need if you need support you know it's it's kind of like that and I felt like when I first went to counseling yeah it was like spewing out everything and but that was his job and he didn't mind he's just like it's okay the shit's my deal just go for it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:12

Yes and that's that's what I love about therapy and why I want to be a therapist. I want to be all kinds of therapists but I can't choose all of them because I would be dead by the time I was finished the education required.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:23

Right all I want to do is have you shit on me. Like that's it. I want to sit there and let you shit all over me or fart in my in my in my office and that's a terrible thing to say but it's not because I like it. It's not because the you know the heavy stuff that you're bringing to put on my shoulders is gonna weigh me down or or you know is you know I don't think much of it because my shit's way heavier than your shit so like what do you have to complain about? I never think that way. I want you to come in to my office one day when I have a private practice and I want you to unload it all because then you don't have to carry it anymore and I know how to file it away in the drawer. I know how to take it off my shoulders I'm trained to take it off my shoulders and put it in a drawer and think about it from a point of view that isn't traumatizing. And and most counselors are very very good at compartmentalizing the stuff that you have to bring. So if you ever feel like you know nobody wants to hear your shit or it's not important or like most victims say this is like the number one thing that victims say is like oh you know what people are going through way worse stuff than I am I don't have to like it's you know I don't need to talk to somebody about it. There are people there there are children starving in Africa like what do I have to complain about well even counselors need counselors sometimes and everyone I think everyone in the world should have a therapist because they want to hear you they they want to they want they want to hear your problems they that's it's not and it's not because they're being paid they chose a career path that's not lucrative trust me it's not it's really it's not the the best career choice to take and you know they they they didn't choose it because they want to get paid to sit in an office and wear a tweet jacket with with you know elbow patches and look smarter than you and and sit on a pedestal. That's not what they're there for. They're not there to judge you they're there to unjudge you and unjudge yourself and they're there to give you the resources you need to grow and learn how to communicate because nothing is as important as learning how to communicate there is no example on earth.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:35

I I I can offer a personal endorsement of um what Alexander is actually bringing to the table because my my first experience with you I don't even know if you really remember oh I remember everything. You observed I I guess just by like looking at my facial expressions my mannerisms the the way I joked about my my childhood and whatnot that there was like some deeply rooted pain and trauma there and you had encouraged me to share with you like you you made it really obvious that you were a soft place to land and that you were a sympathetic ear and you were not a judgmental person and I remember unloading on you and I was in tears and you held me I mean like for those who don't know I'm 21 years older than this guy. He was like pretty close to being a kid when we first had this experience and it stuck with me it's changed my whole approach to interacting with other people I've learned that there is an importance in listening and in reserving judgment on certain things. And I remember just feeling validated so much by by your open ear and just when I thought like it it couldn't get any better you know the the the conversation took an unexpected curve you know because I had shared my stuff with with with you you shared your stuff with me and I immediately felt guilty because your story was so much more dramatic than mine. And yeah and that's a you that's a big no and and the thing is is like you immediately went right back to comforting me saying look like the worst thing that's happened to you is like the worst thing that you can feel because it's your story. It's not a competition whose trauma is worse. And I learned a couple of things one is to listen to people whose stories that I think are kind of like bullshit just because I think my story is like more painful and they don't have the right to hurt. I also learned not to be ashamed to share my story with people that have gone through some bigger things. Like we're all there to support each other ideally and all of your education Alexander aside I I think you were uniquely qualified either by design or through your experiences to do what you're choosing to do. And you had said at the top of the episode that people are will are are welcome to reach out to you and I would encourage anybody who's listening to this take this guy up on his offer he's not bullshitting you. He is hands down one of the sweetest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing not just a sweet guy but an insightful bright and caring guy who you know like if he could get through my tough exterior and start me on a path of softening up I think he can help anybody because I was a real piece of shit before I met you I remember that conversation because we were sitting on that stupid uh knot couch the uh the backseat of the van.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:57

Yeah at our friend's house yeah his couch his his knot couch so yeah that that that's basically my piece so well I appreciate it and uh yeah and you know what just for just for fun just for for giggles is um as much as I love helping people and working a full-time job and taking care of my children my services are not always going to be free to those who are able to pay for what I'm what I'm doing. So I you know I try to make my time as available as humanly possible to anybody who needs me whenever they need me and I don't charge anyone who wants to just have a talk or need some help you know I really honestly encourage you to you know if you're having a hard time and I can change your day or your life or just this week shoot me a message. I I'm I'm you know I talk a lot on this podcast but I also know how to shut up and listen and uh you know if you want to have a chat with me I am I'm all ears so you know and I'm not gonna charge you I'm not gonna you know make you you know sign a a counseling contract with me because I again like I said before I'm not a counselor I'm becoming a counselor but I'm not so and we'll make sure that we include links to your contact information and any of the resources you've mentioned in this week's show notes as well.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:21

Cool.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:22

Yeah well Alexander it was awesome having you on the show.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:27

No thanks it was awesome to be on the show.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:30

And to our listeners again uh as always like follow and share on our social media platforms you can find us at www.wtbb pod dot com and email us at wtbbodcast at gmail dot com and uh thanks for listening to when the bow breaks podcast