"Why Can't We All Just Get Along?"

Ac shares the story of how a complicated family history led to estrangement from his mother and sister.

www.buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:06

You are listening to When the Bow Breaks with your host, Alexis Arlene. Today's guest is AC from Missionary Position Podcast.

SPEAKER_04: 0:18

And and told me, you know what? Like, get out of my house. Don't come back. And until you're ready to get right with God. Even if they were really angry with me and didn't want to talk to me, there's like nothing I wouldn't do to make that right. Am I gonna am I gonna like hate myself? Am I gonna feel guilty because I didn't do something while I had the time? I'm doing awesome. How are you?

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

Great. How did how did you hear about me? Uh, why don't you tell everyone about that? Because I think it's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_04: 0:59

Um, if memory serves me, which it doesn't often at this point in life, I I think I came across you on one of the podcaster support forums, and um, it was just a discussion thread. And um, I don't know, something about the the nature of your show really struck a chord with me, so I reached out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19

I was surprised and because um I was thinking, oh, I'm new, I'm nobody, nobody knows who I am. Who's gonna want to talk to me about this? You know, I I already asked people I knew. I was like, you know, you want to come on my show, maybe talk about it? You know, you can use a different name, and they're like, no, it doesn't really appeal to me, you know. And I was like, all right, so I I reached out on Facebook um to other podcasters and I was like, hey, can you all help me um looking for guests for my show? It's a new show, so no one really knows. And this person and that just kind of, you know, directed me and uh took a listen to his podcast. I thought it was hilarious, by the way. I loved it, thought it was refreshing. Yeah, you guys were joking about how you're not politically correct. And and I was telling my husband, he's like, Good. He's like, that's good. So he's he's ready to listen too. Uh but uh anyway, um, why don't you tell me a little bit about that, about your podcast and what you do? Because I find that so interesting and fascinating. I just love it.

SPEAKER_04: 2:12

Okay, well, the whole thing started out, it was just a couple of years ago. My my brother and I started talking about doing a YouTube channel or maybe a podcast project, but we weren't really sure, you know, what expertise that we had to offer into the uh in into cyberspace. And finally we just decided, you know what, let's just be ourselves. We'll see what comes across, we'll see where the show takes us. And, you know, instead of trying to decide what's the concept and lead the show, we thought we'd let the show lead us. And what we discovered is that, you know, a couple of our our passions, first of all, is you know, trying to communicate to people that it's okay to communicate honestly and directly. And we really strongly feel that political correctness more often than than not gets in the way of that.

SPEAKER_01: 3:05

I agree with that a hundred percent. I do agree with that. U people become so finicky and nitpicky, it's just it it becomes so confusing, and then you you miss the whole point of the relationship, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 3:15

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you know, and uh a byproduct of exploring that whole thing is you know, we we we came to the conclusion that ultimately like our egos get in the way of communication more often than not, and I think political correctness is something that we sort of use to shield our egos with. I mean, ultimately, like offense it's taken, it's not given, right? So, I mean, if I'm if I'm talking to you, if I'm not trying to be a jerk, then you know, there's a certain amount of responsibility that you need to take to try to hear what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01: 3:50

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04: 3:51

And you know, it's it's all the responsibility isn't on me to try to guess what might bother you. You know, if something bothers you, yeah, you can tell me and I can adjust my trajectory. I know I'm sort of wandering off topic already, but I mean that's just a podcaster habit.

SPEAKER_01: 4:07

No, not really, because you're kind of on point. It I think it's all about, you know, setting boundaries, even those little boundaries and conversations that we have with people, you know, and and um that actually kind of brings that actually kind of brings me up to my whole stranger thing. I won't go into my story, but uh, you know, I was kind of raised, you know, to accept what everyone else said, and you're not allowed to have an opinion and you're not allowed to express your thoughts. Right. And you just have to kind of go along with, you know, the political correctness of everything. And and for me, it was being raised, you know, in a very religious home. And my parents were very, they were very um militant. Uh, they were both, they meant they meant in the army, so they were very bossy and very like, you know, do what I say kind of thing. And so I kind of grew up with that. And so when I became older and I started noticing that other people were allowing me to share those things, you know, and express myself. So I was like, oh, people are listening, you know, they're not like kicking me for it, you know. And so then I started to kind of, you know, explore my whole way of thinking. And I was like, oh, I can express my thoughts, I can share this with this person, and I'm not gonna get, you know, scapegoated for it, you know, later or whatever.

SPEAKER_04: 5:20

Yeah, and that's so huge. Cause because I mean you you you learn and develop so much on a personal level when you when you get these hang ups out of the way, right?

SPEAKER_01: 5:29

Oh, yeah, it's totally liberating. Totally liberating. I mean, I'm a completely different person now than I was, you know, just a couple years ago when all this happened. But, you know, let's talk about you. Like when and how how did this all happen for you? How did this whole estrangement thing, you know, occur, you know, in your life?

SPEAKER_04: 5:45

It's not really the easiest question to answer. Yeah. The way I like to describe it to people, it's sort of like the deaths by a thousand cuts, right? It's all these little things that that build up over time. And, you know, I I guess the first sort of like major step towards the rift, if you want to look at it that way, was I I had been going through for many years a crisis of faith. Because like you, I was raised in a very, very religious household. The rules were very strict. Questioning authority, questioning the religious texts was really not allowed. And um, in adulthood, I mean, I was like well into my 30s at this point. I I I really started looking at things and asking these questions that I'd never been allowed to ask growing up. And I I got to the point where it's like, you know what, I'm not really sure if I believe this stuff anymore. And um with with my mom, because my my dad died back in 2002, so it's just sort of my mom is the the parent that you know I still have if you want to look at it like that. She was the one I had these conversations with, and she just kept on, you know, everything I had to say, like I've got a question, she wouldn't help me explore these things, she sort of just started to push back and turn it into a personal thing. Like there was something I was doing to, you know, actively offend her because I didn't share her perspective anymore. And so I I sort of started to back off a little bit as far as like those types of conversations go with her, just sort of for the sake of the peace. But then um, just before Christmas, I guess it was about five or six years ago, I was over at her place visiting her, and she was just going on and on and on about like all these wonderful things that were happening in church. And I just said, Mom, you know, like I gotta put you on pause there. Like, I'm I'm not really sure that I believe what you believe anymore. You know, I had the the whole conversation worked out in my head in advance. I was very intellectually prepared for this conversation, but the conversation turned out to be completely emotional.

SPEAKER_01: 7:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 8:00

So I I I was sort of blindsided because she she just started getting so angry, and um I I I tried to keep the conversation back towards, you know, like these are the these are the questions I've had, these are the doubts that I I I can't really make sense of. And um, yeah, I mean she's your mom, you know, you wanted to express, you know, those thoughts and those feelings, and uh, you know, maybe you were kind of hoping that she would kind of be accepting and help you out of that, and she just wasn't, or well, you know, you know, I I it's sort of weird because like when I was imagining how things were gonna play out, I had sort of like pictured a case where you know, she's not gonna accept me for where I'm at or for like what I've become, but she's gonna hear me out at least so that she can understand, okay, what brought me to this place, and maybe if she's not gonna accept it, maybe she's gonna, you know, take a more loving approach to you know fixing it or whatever from from her perspective. But it it it all sort of played out like my my doubt was um, or at least my my difference of opinion from her was like a personal attack on her entire way of being.

SPEAKER_01: 9:18

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Like if you don't believe what she believes, it she takes it very personally. Yeah, my mom was like that a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:26

She uh if I would try to exploit a contradiction or even, yeah, like you said, just ask a question. She saw that as my thinking was being muddled by something else.

SPEAKER_00: 9:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 9:40

Yeah, like we were we'd get in trouble even for even going that way. So I get this whole like uncomfortable feeling that you had with this conversation not going the way that you expected.

SPEAKER_04: 9:51

Yeah, it can be kind of rough, right? And you know, like it I I didn't want to hurt her, obviously. So I was trying to be as gentle as possible, but I mean it gets to the point where like I I I have to admit, like one of the things that's really changed between like now and back then is like I'm far less of a hothead than I was. I mean, back then somebody would like sort of like challenge me a little bit too much, and then I just want to get loud.

SPEAKER_01: 10:16

I have to say that's where I'm at right now. So I'm hoping it'll end soon because I've never been like this before.

SPEAKER_04: 10:20

Yeah, it's no fun.

SPEAKER_01: 10:22

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_04: 10:23

So, you know, like I I I don't know if if I can entirely blame her for the rift. Because I I definitely like my my reaction to her reaction certainly like escalated the situation, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_00: 10:37

But I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 10:39

I I I I replay the situation in my head like all the time. Because I mean, like, even though we don't talk or whatever, I mean she's my mom, and there's a lot of her in me. I hear her voice coming out of my mouth when I'm talking to my kids sometimes. I mean, like she didn't raise me entirely bad, you know. She's on my mind. I mean, she's she's blood and everything else.

SPEAKER_01: 11:00

And um when you express that you didn't, you know, share these beliefs, when did the point of no contact happen? Who stopped talking to who? Or was it just kind of mutual?

SPEAKER_04: 11:10

It was actually really, really abrupt because we had one, I guess, heated conversation too many. Um I I don't know what exactly your position is as far as faith goes, but I mean what I've learned is that it's a fairly common thing when you're like coming out of a religion, just like when you're going into a religion, you you tend to get a little preachy.

SPEAKER_00: 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 11:30

And and oh yeah, you want to share your newfound knowledge and whatever. And so I was sort of at that point where like I just couldn't shut up about it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01: 11:38

And yeah, you were excited about it, it was helping you, and it was it it added something to your life, and you wanted to share that, you know. I get that. Yeah, I would get excited about that too, and you know, things like that. And my mom, she would just kind of like squash it.

SPEAKER_04: 11:51

Yeah, it sort of takes the fun out of everything you're you're you're learning about.

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04: 11:58

I guess I was a little bit too preachy for her like, she was a little bit too preachy for my like, and then she just sort of snapped the one day and and told me, you know what, like get out of my house, don't come back and until you're ready to get right with God. Because until that day comes, you have no place in my life. Jeez. And um, as I was on my way out the door, you know, she was almost she had like this like twisted kind of laugh coming over her, like she just was so proud of herself, you know. Like every every knee will bow, including yours. And if you don't come right with God, you're gonna burn in hell. I mean, that's just the way it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_01: 12:39

So this is why I wanted to talk to you because when I when I started hearing you kind of ex you know explain, you know, kind of your mom a little bit, it gave me chills because this is like very much like how my mother was like very fire and brimstone messages like you do this or you're going to go to hell. And even if, you know, if I was friends with a gay person, oh heaven forbid, you know, you're associating with with evil people, and I'm like, eh, I don't know, I've never been hurt by any of those people. So I don't know. I don't know where you know this evil you're talking about is really from, but it I don't see it, and these people are my friends, you know. And so it just you know, things like that that just didn't make sense to me. I was like, how can you uninclude someone for that? Like, and I was like, and how can you just, you know, love your child so conditionally? Also, that bothered me. I feel like your mom and my mom could almost be twins.

SPEAKER_04: 13:34

Yeah, they probably get along just fine from the sounds of things.

SPEAKER_01: 13:37

Yeah, sound like they believe the same stuff and they don't care whether their kids believe it or not, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 13:44

It's just such a weird thing to to to have a rift over, right?

SPEAKER_01: 13:47

Because I mean, like I couldn't imagine doing it to my kids. I couldn't imagine.

SPEAKER_04: 13:50

That's the thing. I got I got two kids too. I got two sons, one's 11, the other one's 16. I I can't imagine any situation that might come up that would cause me to stop loving them or stop wanting to be in contact with them. Yeah, I mean, even if they were really angry with me and didn't want to talk to me, there's like nothing I wouldn't do to make that right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 14:10

So I mean, like, as as a parent, even I just I just don't get it. They're my responsibility, they're my life, they're my everything, you know. And yeah, I I I I I couldn't turn my back on that. And I I try to teach them too, you know, like you know, you never mind what other people have to say about the way things are, like, figure things out for yourself, ask questions, follow the follow the questions through to their logical conclusions, look for the good in people. How much Jesus a person has is irrelevant. Yeah, do they treat you decent? That's all you need to know.

SPEAKER_01: 14:42

Yeah, that's another thing, you know. There was all this talk about, you know, I don't want to diss Christianity too much because there's, you know, plenty of people who are doing it and they're doing it right, you know. But the way I was raised, you know, we were preached to, but no one lived it. No one was like Jesus at all. And so that was why it was so confusing. And I'm like, how am I supposed to live this? I don't even know how to live it. I'm not seeing it being done. And and how am I supposed to, you know, a lot of it was taken out of context, you know, when I was growing up. It wasn't like I grew up and just realized Christianity was just crap, you know, you know, and I it doesn't really matter what my perspective is, really, but it, you know, it was just something that for me was distorted and you know, I had to question it. And when I was older and I did that, it was just she just didn't like it. And when my kids come to me, I'm always trying to be like, well, if I don't know the answer, I'm gonna find out, you know, I'm gonna help you, you know. And I always tell my kids, it doesn't matter to me, you know, what you believe in. My daughter made my oldest daughter, she made the decision to be baptized into the same faith. And I honestly have to say that part of me was kind of upset and or just worried, concerned.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 15:55

I was like, okay, I want to make sure she knows what she's doing. She knows you know, I had lots of long talks with her. I was like, what do you believe? And you know, where are you learning this? You know, like who's talking, you know, who's giving the messages in her, you know, her group or whatever. But you know, I always want to make sure, you know, if you know what you're doing, you know, this is what you want to do, do it. I'm gonna support you 100%. And I'm gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_04: 16:16

That's what a mother should do.

SPEAKER_01: 16:18

That's what all parents should do. It's like, you know, we can't go through life assuming that everyone's gonna have the same perspective as us. I just think that's part of a the big reason why there's so much pushback when you're trying to, like you said, get along with people in conversation just about your differences because people become so passionate and so preachy, like you said, it gets in the way of our relationships, which is like, you know, a total perfect example of kind of what happened, you know, between you and your mom, you know, just the belief thing.

SPEAKER_04: 16:47

Yeah, it's it's not even limited to like religious stuff. Like on the most recent episode of our our podcast at the time of recording now, um, we we had a conversation about the arguments that people have, like say like arguing Beatles versus Rolling Stones, you know, like we get oh no, we get passionate about the things that we care about, but we get passionate to the point sometimes where like we don't want to appreciate the fact that hey, we're being exposed to some new ideas and some new perspectives. We're so focused on winning the conversation that we end up losing out big time.

SPEAKER_01: 17:21

Yeah. Yeah, nobody wins really.

SPEAKER_04: 17:24

I I don't care like how different two people are. I mean, we guaranteed we have way more in common than than we don't.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

Yeah, for sure. So, like aside from the you know, the religious stuff, what are what what were some of the other things that just kind of picked at you for a long time?

SPEAKER_04: 17:39

Like what you'd pointed out with your parents. I mean, it wasn't like limited to like the religious uh inconsistencies or hypocrisy, it's just a case of like you say one thing, you do another. Like I I I I have troubles with people that you know just aren't straight about who they are. Like, I don't care if you're the biggest jerk on the planet, if you just own it, if you're authentic about it, like I can respect it if nothing else. Yeah, I don't have to like you, but I can't disrespect you for being real.

SPEAKER_01: 18:08

Yeah, you know, I agree with that. Yeah, it's like I mean, I had to make a big change in myself when I just to be able to handle that. And it's hard for people to change. And so sometimes you just gotta let people just, you know, go through their own life and do their own thing and and uh just pray they don't hurt anyone, and you know, and just you know, yeah, just the mutual respect thing. You know, there's assholes out there, and sure. Um, you just gotta let them give them time to grow up, and some of them won't ever.

SPEAKER_04: 18:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 18:37

And that and we still have to accept that too. And that's tough when it's your parents sometimes.

SPEAKER_04: 18:42

Yeah, it parents, I don't know, it it it's it's complicated on either end of the equation, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 18:47

It is complicated. I'm a parent, and you know, I had grandparents, I saw a lot of this, you know, happen between you know the older generation. There was estrangement in my family, and I just I keep seeing this cycle, you know, and I just I want it to end, but I feel like the only way it's gonna end is if I just don't associate, you know, with those people, but it's like then it just keeps repeating and then you know are you sure we're not related?

SPEAKER_04: 19:10

Because I mean, like estrangement, like that would just sort of like the normal way of like family business, both on my mom's side and my dad's side for it was most of my childhood.

SPEAKER_01: 19:22

Oh I know, like after I stopped talking to my parents, I was like, wow, this wasn't I'm not the first one, you know, like just following in their footsteps. Yeah, because I was like, oh, now I get like, oh, that's why so-and-so ducked out for like 10 years and no one knew where they were. I was like, oh, it's because her dad was a piece of shit or whatever, you know, they're abusive or got her into drugs or whatever. And then you start figuring it out because then people start telling the truth, you know, and it starts coming out. Um, but yeah, so it's real interesting, you know, on the outside looking in, and then you re then you're like, oh wait, wait, how did this happen? I gotta go give that person a call, be like, hey, how do I do this? You know, not talk to my family and How do I do that?

SPEAKER_04: 20:00

Well, it's hard to mean like I I I I looked at a bit of this too and I was thinking, okay, like maybe I'm just like a bit of a family cliche because like I'm just not talking to my parent or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 20:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:09

Just like they didn't talk to theirs for many years, and maybe their parents before them, who knows?

SPEAKER_00: 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:15

But what I tell myself, anyways, is what sets me apart is that like I I really did agonize over the fact that even though I wasn't the one who caused the ultimately caused the separation that, you know, I was well justified in not doing anything to bridge the gap. Because, you know, like when you're dealing with somebody who's like really, really toxic, uh there's no direct benefit to be had from having them in your life. I mean, quite the opposite. There's a lot of harm to be had.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:46

And I cope with uh anxiety and and depression and panic disorder as it is. So I mean, like, I don't really need to introduce any unnecessary elements of nastiness in my life because like it's on a good day, it's difficult to like keep things going.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

Yeah, and this is why, you know, this is why I love talking to people because it's it's so funny how you know you lose your family and then somehow you you you find others who have lost their families or have been abandoned or who left, and you all talk to each other and you realize, God, we are like siblings almost. Like we were raised, like we have the same feelings, we have the same crap we have to deal with now, you know, like the depression and the you know, I have all those things too. It's nuts, it's insane. Like you said, even on a good day, it's like you think, God, how the hell did I get through that? Even like how how did I how was I happy today and didn't cry in front of any anyone, you know, on this happy occasion, because usually those happy occasions, you know, they make me upset, you know, nowadays. And so, yeah, like even on a good day, it's tough. And so, and the holidays, that's like when everyone just, you know, in our kind of little estranged child group, um, you know, that's that's a hard time.

SPEAKER_04: 22:03

And yeah, that's a painful reminder that like everybody else has got certain types of people in their life that you don't have.

SPEAKER_01: 22:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then, you know, even, you know, I have my husband's family, you know, I'm really thankful for that, but it doesn't really even help the sting of what happened, you know, all the years growing up.

SPEAKER_00: 22:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 22:24

You know, you're you see all the happy things happening, but in your mind, you're remembering all of these like really scary things. And so you're standing there and everyone's having a good time and you're like shaking because you're not where, you know, where everyone else is. You're back somewhere else and you know, where you don't want to be. And so, you know, then you gotta leave the room or whatever, you know, so you can calm down. And that's the kind of stuff though that I deal with anyway. That's the kind of stuff, you know, people with PTSD and panic disorder deal with because we're constantly battling, you know, the past. And I get so angry when some people say for give and forget. And I was like, Yeah, I try that all the time. You know, I just can't forget what happened, you know, my subconscious, it's all ingrained in there.

SPEAKER_04: 23:06

Yeah, I I I forgot I forget nothing. I'm I'm happy to forgive, but like, yeah, I I I can't just put things out of my mind. I mean, you know what it's like? I mean, it like I think comes with a territory for a lot of people with anxiety issues is at least a touch of OCD. And yeah, we we tend to like want things to make sense, and when they don't make sense, we'll just keep turning them over and over and over in our head again, and like dealing with like parental estrangement. That's one of those things we can't make sense of. That's not the way our minds work, so like we just get stuck on it.

SPEAKER_01: 23:41

And it's just like a record that just replays, and you're like, How do I make this stop? Like, you want it to get better, and I mean that's like the whole PTSD thing in general, you know, you're playing it over in your head, trying to make sense of it, trying to cope with it, and trying to also, you know, your subconscious is also building up those defenses, you know, um, and you don't even realize it. And then pretty soon you're just at least for me, I'm like, okay, you know, I get some really like firm boundaries, and people are like, whoa, she's upset about it.

SPEAKER_04: 24:14

No, but it's not, it's not like that. It's all like just self-preservation. And you're also like putting these other people in a good position too, even if they don't realize it because you're telling them, look, like these are my triggers, and I'm basically telling you how to avoid them so that we can all get along better.

SPEAKER_01: 24:28

Yeah, it's totally. This was like that's so helpful talking to somebody else about all this PTSD stuff. What were some of the things like after you were estranged? Like, how did that like affect you? Like, how did that change the way, like, did that make any change to your life at all? Like, I mean, obviously you weren't talking to your mom anymore, but how did it kind of affect you your life like your lifestyle?

SPEAKER_04: 25:18

I think the the the biggest thing was like tying back into like the PTSD, the anxiety stuff, and like turning things over and over again in my head was I started looking at like my life as a whole, like in in the context of my my family unit, like with my mom, my dad, my siblings, and whatever. And I started realizing that you know, like my whole life was basically pushing towards that point where you know the rift was gonna happen. Because like my my my older brother, he um he never really was in contact with my mom and dad. I found out when I was older that like he wasn't my dad's son, he was my mom's son from before my mom and dad got together.

SPEAKER_01: 25:59

But uh like my other stories like that in my family too.

SPEAKER_04: 26:02

Yeah, like my my mom never really wanted to talk about him. And it it seemed like whenever I would like as I was growing up, whenever I would like um say something that sounded maybe like my brother would have said, then she would just you know fire back at me with something along the lines of, you know, like you better just change that because I've written off one child, I can do it again. Oh no problem, right? So I mean it's just always had like that feeling that she was just looking to pull the trigger. So what I what I got out of like revisiting all these these types of memories was realizing that like this wasn't ultimately something that I had done. The the problem was largely on on her end, and I think the responsibility entirely on her end, because she was the parent in in the equation.

SPEAKER_00: 26:47

Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 26:48

And I I learned to let go of a lot of the guilt that I had always carried with me. I was very, very much motivated by by guilt and very little else up until that point. And sort of shrugging off those feelings of like self-blame, that was liberating in itself.

SPEAKER_01: 27:05

Yeah, self-blame for sure.

SPEAKER_04: 27:07

The other big change was it was sort of like, okay, now the the the brakes are off. There's nobody standing in the way of my quest for knowledge, my quest to like answer questions. I don't need mom's approval anymore if I've got these questions of faith. I can just run at it headfirst and like see like what's what. And you know, for the first time in my life, I really started like gobbling up information with without um any preconceived notions. Like I let the evidence lead my conclusions instead of my conclusions sort of filtering the evidence.

SPEAKER_01: 27:42

Yeah, it's like let's see what this stuff really looks like. Yeah, you know, like let's see it with fresh eyes and let's examine it and let's think about it. Yeah, I did the same thing too. It's like it was awesome. I was I was like enjoying it because I was like never allowed to do it before.

SPEAKER_04: 27:56

Yeah, it's like a real high.

SPEAKER_01: 27:57

Yeah, it is a real high. Like, I love to learn, and I was very suppressed in that area of education, being especially being a female in my family. I was braced to be a wife and have babies. I did all that because I wanted to do all that though. They thought I was, you know, doing things their way. And then after I had my babies and wanted to do something else, they're like, hmm, you know, like I was never allowed to make my own decisions or, you know, I was like, man, my my parents, you know, they just go and do their whatever they want. It's like, when are they gonna be okay with me doing that? It's like I'm a you know, 36-year-old woman, and they're you know, they're telling me I how to think and what go to where.

SPEAKER_04: 28:36

Well, it's gonna be terrible too to be like reduced just to being a genetically valid person, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

Oh god, yeah. Oh yeah. I just I had no self-esteem growing up. Zero, like none.

SPEAKER_04: 28:47

I was just waiting to just I mean again, like I don't want to say too much about my own stuff, but I'm not No, but I mean the self-esteem, it's a it's it's it's a good thing you it's a good thing you bring that up because I mean self-esteem is a big thing too. I mean, like there are negative things obviously that have come out of like this like um separation from my mom, like I become a little less trusting of my existing relationships because you know there's it it's been demonstrated to me that like even somebody that you know and love and trust can at any given moment just turn it off and leave you. You know, my my my wife, I think she gets really frustrated with me sometimes because like if she gets even a little bit upset with me, my the first place my mind goes is oh you don't love me anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Or this can't work, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:33

Or you know, I'll understand, and it's so hard, it's so hard for the people in our lives, right?

SPEAKER_01: 29:37

Because like we're not we're not trying to be jerks and it's like you know we're trying to feel safe emotionally and like you tighten up those boundaries or like you start building really thick walls and and nobody else, you know, your existing relationship, people that you've known who have known you for a long time, like, what are you doing? You know, what's this wall here before? You never have this, you know, like what's the deal? And you know, you're trying to express that, you know, while you're still figuring it out, you know, you're still processing all of it, you're trying to explain to them, like, don't do this, this makes me feel bad, or you know, when they've been doing it for years, but you were never able to tell them, you know, or something like that.

SPEAKER_04: 30:13

It's hard too, right?

SPEAKER_01: 30:14

Because like the you know, and then yeah, you always think, oh, the relationship's over now because they're not gonna respect my boundaries, or yeah, or it's done, it's over. Yeah, I have those thoughts. Like, obviously, I never follow through the through with them. My husband's awesome, but it's like I do have those thoughts. I just feel like all these relationships I have are eventually gonna fail.

SPEAKER_04: 30:30

Yeah, you for me, it it makes honestly like relating to strangers a lot easier. It feels safer, right? Because there's nothing really invested. Like, I I'll speak openly about anything with anyone. I don't I don't have like trust trust issues in the sense where like I can't say what's on my mind. Like, you know, if you want to like hate me for it or laugh at me for it, whatever, I can I can eat that. It doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

Yeah, leave a bad review, fine, whatever.

SPEAKER_04: 30:58

Yeah, cool, whatever. Yeah, as long as you're thinking of me, that's that's awesome. But it's like it, yeah. I mean, like that's a positive that's come out because I've just become like more drawn to like people that I don't know. Whereas before I used to be very, very introverted and afraid to talk. So I found my voice, I found my outgoing nature. But you know, the the the flip side to that is like the people that actually are close to me, like it it's it's real work to to tear those walls down that you were talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 31:28

Yeah, it is, it's a lot of work, and you know, I bring up my husband a lot because when I became a stranger, I didn't talk to anybody about it. Nobody knew, nobody in my family knew, nobody. Oh I was, you know, Christian family, they're like, you leave, that's dishonoring your parents, and that's breaking one of the ten commandments, and you're dishonoring God, and therefore you're not a Christian, and you're not good enough. And you know, I was like, Well, don't you ever want to know why?

SPEAKER_04: 31:53

You know, so I wasn't even ready to even um it doesn't matter why to them.

SPEAKER_01: 31:59

It doesn't, yeah, that's the thing, they don't really care. They're just they're upset that you are causing drama for the family, and so I didn't tell anybody, and so my husband, like, oh my god, I don't know how he did all this. Like, he was basically my only support, other than my online support groups. Yeah, and I did have a counselor up until I was estranged, and then I couldn't go anymore because my parents used to babysit my kids all the time, which is one reason why I left. Yeah, I lost my babysitter and left, left my parents. Uh, so I stopped going to that seeing that counselor, but I just joined like every single friggin' online group I could find because I was like, I need help, I need support. I was like, how do I do this? I, you know, I felt really also ignorant to a lot of things because I was, you know, so sheltered. And my husband, he's always been about do what you want to do, you know. He's always been so supportive. And so when I was estranged, it was like I told him I was crying him one day. I was just really deep in my grief, and I was like, I'm changing as a person. And I was like, and I don't know if you'll still love me afterwards. And and he's like, What do you mean? I like that you're growing and that you're changing. I'm getting emotional just saying it because like I didn't think I was gonna like say this, but no, but I get where you're coming from. I had so fear, so much fear. There's so much fear, and like the you're hanging on like by a thread to like the relationships you have because of what happened, you know, with between you and your parents. Like, I lost a lot of friends too. Like, I don't know if you lost like family members or friends because you didn't talk to your mom anymore, but I did.

SPEAKER_04: 33:24

Yeah, I I lost everybody all at once.

SPEAKER_01: 33:27

It it sucked. Can you imagine like someone blowing up? I mean, I don't want to say that like on the podcast because that could be considered like a threat, but like like can you imagine like somebody just like blowing up the whole stinging place and you're like it's all gone.

SPEAKER_04: 33:40

Yeah, but emotionally that's exactly what you live through though, right?

SPEAKER_01: 33:44

Yeah. You're like, I might as well live on the moon. It is totally, totally, it's a total devastation. Like, it's like everyone died, and you can't like, but they're there and like you like you can contact them, but you can't at the same time.

SPEAKER_04: 33:57

That's the hardest thing, like moving forward, right? Because like I think about like my my dad who actually died in 2002. I mean, like, we we made peace long before he passed away, so everything was cool there. And you know, obviously I had to grieve his loss, and it was hard, but I mean, like, it was easier than grieving the loss of my mom, even though my dad and I were way closer. Yeah, like what my counselor had said this like if you don't have the option of like rebuilding a relationship, if you know that that's just not on the table, you have to grieve her loss as though she has died. It's the only way you're gonna move on. Yeah, but the reality is, is like, okay, so like I've I've cried my tears, I've spent my time thinking about it, I've like done my time in therapy. Ultimately, like she isn't dead, like she's a phone call away. Yeah, you know, and that's always the struggle.

SPEAKER_01: 34:51

It's like or when they try and contact you, yeah, or when they try and contact you when you don't want to be contacted. You know, I had that when you know I didn't want to be contacted, and you know, I had every Joe Schmoe from people I hadn't seen since I was tiny who were finding me on Facebook, you know, telling me you shaking their finger in my face on Facebook, you gotta go back to your parents. I'm like, who the hell are you? Like, where were you? Like, you know, 30 years ago, I was like, I haven't seen you. You don't even know who I am. I was like, you don't even know me.

SPEAKER_04: 35:22

Yeah, you just want to put it in the shitty opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 35:25

Yeah, yeah. And it just it was scary. And like that's when you don't want to talk about it because you feel like, okay, your whole community's gone, but no, it's not gone. They're there, they just like have their pitchforks up against you, you know, and you're like, shit.

SPEAKER_04: 35:38

Well, I I guess I was sort of fortunate in in in that sense because like with everybody disappearing, like they just disappeared. Um, the only people that or the only person I I know that still has that still at that time had contact with my mom was my ex-wife, who's like my best friend in the whole world. So it was it was hard for her because like she wanted to see everybody get along, but at the same time, she'd been around the situation for enough years to know that like, you know, I wasn't just being an asshole, that this was like a real thing. And then eventually, like I I reached out to my one of my sisters, who I'd sort of lost in this whole transaction, and I just went and and I'll I won't say her name, I'll just her her first initial is L. I went to see L and um just to sort of make peace with her. And you know, like the agreement we had was like, Yeah, let's get along, let's just keep things, you know, civil.

SPEAKER_00: 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 36:37

And um I just asked her, like, for the sake of my anxiety and everything, he just like not talk about mom because I can't really handle it. And for the longest time she was cool that way. But then she started like saying things like, you know, mom's changed, like you know, she's gone through a lot of stuff, like she she would like to talk to you. And I said, Well, like I've I've changed a lot too. And like I think about this, like if if I've become such a different person, it's unreasonable to assume that she hasn't had the opportunity at least to become a different person as well.

SPEAKER_00: 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 37:10

But the the thing that holds me back, and I don't know if it's reasonable or not, I'll just unpack on you. You'll be my my therapist today.

SPEAKER_01: 37:18

Go for it.

SPEAKER_04: 37:18

Um is that like I'm finally at the point where like I don't cry when I think about my mom. I don't like get frustrated, I don't get angry all the time when I think about my mom. In fact, I can go like weeks or even months sometimes without thinking about my mom. It it's just such a like it's not like a happy place, but it's a it's a functional place. And I I don't know if I could handle grieving her loss a second time. Like if I was to to go back and say, okay, well, let's give this a shot, let's see if we if a relationship can be found here, and then learn that oh no, it's just the same as it was before. Like I I think it would just be more devastating at this point than it was originally.

SPEAKER_01: 38:01

For me, it's an everyday decision. I have to decide every day to not talk to my parents. And that's hard. That's like me burying them. And I don't like that about myself. But on the other hand, I know that if I were to go back to that relationship, yeah, I would just be burying myself at that point.

SPEAKER_04: 38:21

Yeah, and that's the shitty thing. I mean, the the the other part that really complicates the equation is that like when you're dealing with parents, especially like when you start getting into like full-on adulthood, like 30 and up, yeah, your parents aren't exactly young, right? Like they're not gonna live forever.

SPEAKER_01: 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 38:39

And and I think like my mom, she's like pushing 80 years old at this point. And it's like, how am I gonna feel if I get the phone call from my sister that says, Oh yeah, mom dropped dead today or whatever? Like, am I gonna am I gonna like hate myself? Am I gonna feel guilty because I didn't do something while I had the time? Like, I I worry about that stuff because I mean like again, that's like another byproduct of anxiety is you want to imagine every possible outcome so you can mentally prepare for it. So nothing really surprises you. Yeah, but like this is one of those things where I don't have any point of reference to help me imagine the possible outcomes. I don't know what it's gonna be like. And that big question mark, it's almost like it's a completely separate but equally large issue. Yeah, I don't know how to deal with this level of unknown, not with something that's that important. And it's one of those things where like I sometimes it's like I I'll wake up in the morning and it's like, okay, well, today I'm gonna call my sister Elle and I'm gonna be like, Okay, can you give me mom's phone number? Which is another sad thing because I don't even know where my mom lives now. But call my sister and say, Hey, can you give me mom's phone number? I want to phone her because you know, if nothing else, before she dies, I want her to know that even if we don't have a relationship, that I love her. And then I'll have my first cup of coffee and think, What the hell are you thinking? Like, that's just stupid.

SPEAKER_01: 39:56

It's like people don't understand that. They think, Oh, that that would be nice. Like any any normal person be like, Oh, that would be nice, just tell your mom that you love her. But it's like what that actually really does, then you're kind of playing with fire.

SPEAKER_04: 40:07

Well, yeah. And the other question is like, nice for who? Like, it's not gonna be nice for me.

SPEAKER_01: 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:13

And like I think about it, like on her end, I mean, maybe she's at the same spot I'm at where it's like, okay, maybe she cried for a long time, maybe she was upset, maybe she had regrets about the way things went, maybe she's okay right now, and maybe me reaching out just sort of like, you know, craps all over that. And like, is it fair to do that to like a like at this point, a complete stranger?

SPEAKER_01: 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:37

I I'm not in the business of sort of like, you know, doing things that I know for a fact are gonna piss people off or hurt them. And like, even though the it's probably well justified to dish out some hurt in my mom's direction, I just I can't bring myself to do it. I'm not that person.

SPEAKER_01: 40:50

It's har it's hard for me too because you know, I don't even have any siblings that I can talk to. And so I don't have that go-between. So you're just completely guessing at the completely guessing, completely guess. I mean, well, not completely. I when I was estranged, when I when I cut it off from my family, I was thinking they were gonna totally ignore me because they had ignored me all my life, really. And I was like, oh, they'll be glad now that I'm not, you know, bugging them with my feelings, you know. So, you know, and I thought they would just forget about me. But that was the time they paid more attention to me than ever. And it was all, you know, negative attention and it was all, you know, they were spreading terrible rumors about, you know, my husband and I were totally not even true.

SPEAKER_00: 41:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 41:33

But when I examined them, all of those rumors that they were spreading were actually true about my sister. Um, my sister was the one getting divorced, my sister was the one in having serious money problems, and my sister was the one that was losing her house and you know, things like that. And they were saying things like that. I was like, why are these rumors even? I was like, the only reason they're doing this is just to hurt me or to deflect whatever shame they're experiencing, you know, that they don't want to have on themselves. And and that's what they had done to me all my life was, you know, take their shame and kind of put it on me, shame on me kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 42:08

Yeah, that's really true.

SPEAKER_01: 42:09

And so one, yeah, really nasty. And so once I left, I wasn't around for them to do that anymore. I wasn't around for them to dump on me anymore. So then they, you know, just spread rumors and they're like, oh, yeah, they start talking to people, and then then you hear hear from, you know, someone who heard from someone else who heard from someone else. Are you and your husband getting divorced? No. You know, and you know, at first it it did hurt me. It made me really, really upset. And I was like, well, that's exactly what they were trying to do. They weren't accomplishing by, you know, spreading those rumors. You know, they weren't doing anything but but trying to hurt me. And so I was like, I really can't talk to them. Like I had to like cut out everybody, and and and it bothered me because I was like, that's not fair, you know, that I gotta lose my whole, you know, community and friends. But then I started to kind of like, well, who is my friend? You know, and I'm trying to figure that out. And then I realized, you know, a lot of those people were kind of the same way, yeah. And um, I had been stuck in a lot of toxic relationships because I had kind of been groomed to be in them, you know, since I was a child. And then so, you know, I get estranged and then I develop my new way of thinking, my own way of thinking, or just allowing myself to think and setting those boundaries and then realizing, you know, those people never respected my boundaries ever. And so then, you know, losing that those friendships became a little easier because I realized how rotten they were, and I realized I could do so much better and yeah, you know, actually spend time with people who actually care.

SPEAKER_04: 43:38

Who uh like once once you identify one toxic relationship, it makes it so easy to spot all the other ones in your relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 43:45

Yeah, totally. It was like that, it was eye-opening. I was like, oh, you know, that just kind of put me off. And I think about that, like, why do they do that? And I was like, why do I feel like this? And oh, my parents used to do the same thing. It's like, oh, duh, well, this person isn't really a good person to be around. This person's always done that, you know. Like, then you get mad, like, this person's always treating me like crap, you know, and so then it's hard too.

SPEAKER_04: 44:06

Like when you when you have a separation, like is my my younger sister, just a nasty person, like through this this whole rift in the family, whatever, thought, okay, like there's like one super toxic person that isn't in my life now. And like with her not being around, it was actually like okay, that's a sigh of relief because like you mean your sister? Yeah, the younger one, like she's just not nice. Then I don't know, I was like curious about her kids because I mean, like the kids, they're the ones who really lose out in all these kind of things.

SPEAKER_00: 44:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 44:36

And so I was sort of creeping her Facebook profile, seeing if there was like anything about the kids on there to see how they're growing up and whatever. And I saw that like we we hadn't talked at this point for maybe like three years, and she had posted like all these nasty like cartoons that she'd drawn on me, or whatever. Like, just she drew of you, yeah. Like just a complete smack. And that's like elementary. I'm like, oh my god, like we're like three years removed from each other, and like you you can't like just let me go, you know. Like, yeah, if you're so obsessed, why not just like say or do something nice? Like, you don't have to be this way, but it that that sort of hurt me. I mean, just knowing that like somebody's out there like going out of their way to like you know, basically besmirch my good name.

SPEAKER_01: 45:23

Yeah, and it puts perspective like for a while, I was like, why are they you know, for a long time it was just like, why, why are they doing this to me? Why are they treating me like this?

SPEAKER_04: 45:31

And that's what they do, that's what they do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:34

Like it's their personality, it's literally their personality type. And you know, I learned that in counseling. I talked a lot about my mom and my sister and some other people in my family and the doctor, you know, that my counselor was like, they have well sounds like this disorder, it sounds like this disorder. Why don't you read up on it and maybe it'll help you, you know, kind of handle them or you know you at least be able to have your guard up a little bit better. And but it all it did was just make me mad because then I noticed that like I was like, oh, you know, because it was like they they they can help it, but on the other hand, they can't, you know, it's like so what do I do?

SPEAKER_04: 46:07

That's a tough thing too, because I mean, like when you deal with mental illness issues, it it's really rough because like on one hand, like I understand that like sometimes the things I say and do because of my anxiety, I can't in the moment really help it, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 46:23

At the same time, I'm responsible for it. I have to own it, I have to apologize for it, I have to make it right. It's just like you know, somebody's drunk and they run over a pedestrian. Well, guess what? You're going to jail, you being drunk and unaware of what you're doing really isn't a factor.

SPEAKER_01: 46:39

Yeah. You know, like you had warnings, you have you've been told, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 46:43

Everything that leads up to the you being drunk and out of control that you did have control over, and with the the the mental illness stuff, it's the same thing. Yes, in the moment I lose control. So what do I what do I do to to fix that moving forward? I avoid allowing things to get to that moment of a of a loss of control. So if I can learn how to do this, then certainly anybody else could learn how to do it too. I'm not like a superhuman, I've got access to like no better or worse information than anybody else does.

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 47:16

So the only difference between me and like some of these, like I'll say ex-family members, the only difference between us is I actually care enough to do the work to not be the shitty person.

SPEAKER_01: 47:28

No, I felt like that too. I felt like all growing up, I felt like I was the one who was keeping the family together. And I don't know why I felt like that because nothing I did did, you know, helped that at all. I mean, the whole narcissistic personality, I'll just say it because I'm gonna talk about it a lot on my show. Narcissistic personality disorder was what my mother and my sister were indirectly diagnosed with by several therapists, not just mine, by several therapists who all agreed, you know, on separate occasions, not even knowing each other that these people had narcissistic personality disorders. So that is one big reason why I'm estranged from my family was because of all that. But you know, growing up, you don't know that they have this disorder. You don't really see your family as being mentally ill. And you treat them. No, they're just your normal. Yeah, totally. And, you know, yeah, totally. It was totally like my normal. And, you know, they made us think that everyone else was worse than we were. And I kept looking around, I'm like, oh, I don't think I believe that. You know, I was like, I don't think so. I was like, I don't know, these people have it pretty good, and you know, and those were all the people my mom hated, you know. Yeah, all the people that, you know, had it better or were genuinely nice people, and my mom just couldn't stand as a kid when you're around people who have you know those kind of personalities where they don't really they don't have any control over what they do, or yeah, they I don't know, they just do it to be mean or my family, they couldn't own up to it. If they hurt me or did something, you know, I would try and say, Hey, that hurt my feelings. I wasn't even allowed to even express that I had any feeling.

SPEAKER_04: 49:07

And so it was like that with my mom too, like just not approachable.

SPEAKER_01: 49:11

Yeah, emotionally. The things, you know, I'm seeing my brother on drugs, and I'm seeing my sister, you know, I don't know, her whole thing, she was just mean, but I felt emotionally responsible for everyone because I was the only one who ever expressed any emotion, at least or at least uh acknowledged any emotion. People acted out on all their emotions all the time, you know, growing up, but we weren't allowed to talk about it. Right. You know, we're allowed to talk about our feelings.

SPEAKER_03: 49:44

Are you enjoying When the Bow Breaks? If so, visit us on Facebook.

SPEAKER_01: 49:49

Like and share, I think, what are your plans? I mean, I don't want to say plans, but I don't know. I guess how do you kind of hope things go for you from here on?

SPEAKER_04: 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 50:27

I know it's like a loaded question.

SPEAKER_04: 50:29

It is a loaded question. I'm just yeah, I guess I'm gonna ignore what you mean by it and just go with what I think you mean by it.

SPEAKER_01: 50:35

Yeah, yeah, go. No, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:37

Well, you you know what this is like being a podcaster, everything you talk about ultimately will lead back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 50:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 50:43

Um what I've what I've gotten out of like the last year plus of doing my podcast with with my brother is that we've we've developed a lot of not just good communication techniques with each other, but uh the other part is when you have conversations that you are recording and then you have the opportunity to listen to later, you learn a lot of things about the way you sound, the way you communicate, the way you talk, not just the sound of your voice, but the way you use your words. And when you revisit some of these recorded conversations sort of like months after the fact, where you're not like clearly remembering them, you're almost hearing them as though another person would hear them.

SPEAKER_03: 51:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 51:23

And that and that allows you to kind of like, oh my, like that explains a lot of misunderstandings I've had. So you sort of grow and move forward from that. So I guess like my my my biggest aspiration, my biggest goal like from this day forward is just to keep on that path, like just keep on developing, keep on learning, keep on trying to better myself, not just for me, but also like so that I can be like a kind of example for my kids that I didn't have for my parents. And also, you know, just for anybody who knows me, anybody who crosses paths with me, I want them to be able to say, like, hey, like I actually got something positive out of that conversation, like even though we were just yucking it up. Like, I feel like I learned something about me today, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 52:09

Like, oh yeah, you definitely that's why I wanted to start this.

SPEAKER_04: 52:12

Like, you learn by talking about it, just like having that positive influence on other people, whichever form that takes. Like, I think like your show is awesome because like we're having a conversation that a lot of people feel like it's subject matter that maybe I should keep to myself. Yeah, the truth is like everybody wants to hear your story because your story and my story they overlap. Well, we talk freely with each other, you know, like we all empower each other. We realize we're not in this alone, we're all struggling together. It makes it easier for all of us with in other areas of life to realize that hey, we got this one big thing in common. Why are we fighting about this other thing where we don't see eye to eye? Why can't we just appreciate each other? You know, so if I can have any role in promoting a world like that, then yeah, that's what I want to do. Like that's my passion right now.

SPEAKER_01: 53:02

Is there anything else like you want to say? Like, I mean, is there anything that's like really helped you throughout this? Like anything you want to say to our listeners?

SPEAKER_04: 53:11

For those people that are dealing with like the loss of religion and loss of support system that that goes with that at the same time, check out like a lot just Google the deconversion stories online. There's so many people that share our story that are like kind enough to like share the ins and outs of their experiences, really makes it easy to cope with our own.

SPEAKER_01: 53:33

Can you actually share the name of that again?

SPEAKER_04: 53:35

I I don't remember the name of the site. I just I I I I would Google deconversion stories forums that that that do that. And some of the stories are just like some of them make you laugh, some of them make you angry, some of them make you cry.

SPEAKER_00: 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 53:50

But I mean, like reading these, that was probably the single most helpful thing for me. So I encourage anybody, whether you're like estranged from a religious family or you're a religious person who's got maybe a non-religious uh family member who's taken their leave, just to give you some perspective on maybe where they're at. The other thing uh I I'd like to suggest, and this is gonna be a shameless plug, is anybody who wants to hear about like the the journey that my brother and I have been on as far as like what we've learned with interpersonal relationships, with communicating with primarily with like platonic relationships, we like to talk about as I think there's a there's enough information about romantic stuff, but we don't always know how to get along with our friends. You check out our our our podcast for that and also to hear our thoughts on why political correctness gets in the way of all of that. We got a website, it's www.missionarypod.com, and all of the episodes are available there.

SPEAKER_01: 54:48

It was great talking with you.

SPEAKER_04: 54:50

Fantastic talking to you too. No, I feel like I made a friend here today. I'm looking forward to talking to you some more in the future.